4 ms·

Google and Steam charge 30% for their top rate as well right? So assuming you are referring to tech companies and not Apple in particular?

cyberax 2y ago
Google allows side-loading, and Steam is completely optional. You can avoid it, even on Valve's own handheld.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo take a cut too and you can't sideload.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    For consoles, not general purpose computers. Microsoft's cut is also much more sane.
    - EMIRELADERO 2y ago
      The "general-purpose" differentiation is completely artificial and shouldn't be used except in very narrow circumstances (for example, when discussing the economic impact of the entire mobile market) The only thing that should matter is the device's raw computing power. The user should have the same level of control over code execution that the manufacturer has post-sale. That should apply to every single appliance and product on the market that uses a chip.
      - cyberax 2y ago
        > The "general-purpose" differentiation is completely artificial It's not. > The only thing that should matter is the device's raw computing power. It's not.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        Care to elaborate?
        Nevermark 2y ago
        Most people would find living without a general purpose mobile iOS or Android device a serious practical disaster. The software & hardware that comes together in general purpose mobile devices is non-trivially different from simple raw “computing” capabilities.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        What I meant by general-purpose computing not being a good benchmark is that whether a user should have the control I described should not turn on whether the device in question is considered a "general-purpose computer". It should not be a part of the criteria.
        cyberax 2y ago
        Computing power doesn't matter at all. It's the expectation of running arbitrary software. My smartwatch has a CPU that is far less powerful than my WiFi access point. But I absolutely expect to be able to install third-party apps on my smartwatch. And I can't care less about making my WiFi AP drive an external monitory displaying spreadsheets. FWIW, gaming consoles are not used as general-purpose devices. PS3 was probably the only console that attempted that, and it was utilized by less than 2% of users. For me, a great criterion for "general purpose" computers is this: "Do people use the device to work with spreadsheets?" Mobile phones certainly qualify.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        I refer you to my reply to the other comment.
        theshrike79 2y ago
        Installing a 3rd party OS/Firmware on a WiFi AP has been done for decades already and is mostly expected. I don't want to run random self-made apps on my watch, I want it to work reliably at all times. And that is done by using APIs and frameworks provided by the smartwatch manufacturer. There are fully custom watch solutions where you can program everything from bare metal up yourself. Get one of those. --- As for the PS3 "general purpose" thing, it was 100% to get around EU tariffs. PCs were on a lower tariff than gaming consoles.
    - theshrike79 2y ago
      I'd posit that the PS5 and Xbox Series X are more "general purpose" than my iPhone. Both consoles run pretty much off the shelf PC hardware, iPhone has a custom chip. There is no valid reason why I shouldn't be able to install, say, Firefox on either of them. The architecture is there and on the Xbox even the APIs are there.
    - derstander 2y ago
      Consoles (especially under the hood the last couple of generations) look a lot more like general purpose computers than phones do.
- Terretta 2y ago
  > Google allows side-loading, and Steam is completely optional. You can avoid it, even on Valve's own handheld. OK, so, a completely optional market charges 30%. This means the market is comfortable with 30% and elects not to bypass that 30%. Why should Apple charge less for an experience buyers seek out?
  - lxgr 2y ago
    A market charging 30% under constant threat of being cut out by a competitor is of very different value to vendors than a market charging 30% that they have no choice but sell on.

cyberax 2y ago

Google allows side-loading, and Steam is completely optional. You can avoid it, even on Valve's own handheld.

theshrike79 2y ago
Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo take a cut too and you can't sideload.
- cyberax 2y ago
  For consoles, not general purpose computers. Microsoft's cut is also much more sane.
  - EMIRELADERO 2y ago
    The "general-purpose" differentiation is completely artificial and shouldn't be used except in very narrow circumstances (for example, when discussing the economic impact of the entire mobile market) The only thing that should matter is the device's raw computing power. The user should have the same level of control over code execution that the manufacturer has post-sale. That should apply to every single appliance and product on the market that uses a chip.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      > The "general-purpose" differentiation is completely artificial It's not. > The only thing that should matter is the device's raw computing power. It's not.
      - EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        Care to elaborate?
        Nevermark 2y ago
        Most people would find living without a general purpose mobile iOS or Android device a serious practical disaster. The software & hardware that comes together in general purpose mobile devices is non-trivially different from simple raw “computing” capabilities.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        What I meant by general-purpose computing not being a good benchmark is that whether a user should have the control I described should not turn on whether the device in question is considered a "general-purpose computer". It should not be a part of the criteria.
        cyberax 2y ago
        Computing power doesn't matter at all. It's the expectation of running arbitrary software. My smartwatch has a CPU that is far less powerful than my WiFi access point. But I absolutely expect to be able to install third-party apps on my smartwatch. And I can't care less about making my WiFi AP drive an external monitory displaying spreadsheets. FWIW, gaming consoles are not used as general-purpose devices. PS3 was probably the only console that attempted that, and it was utilized by less than 2% of users. For me, a great criterion for "general purpose" computers is this: "Do people use the device to work with spreadsheets?" Mobile phones certainly qualify.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        I refer you to my reply to the other comment.
        theshrike79 2y ago
        Installing a 3rd party OS/Firmware on a WiFi AP has been done for decades already and is mostly expected. I don't want to run random self-made apps on my watch, I want it to work reliably at all times. And that is done by using APIs and frameworks provided by the smartwatch manufacturer. There are fully custom watch solutions where you can program everything from bare metal up yourself. Get one of those. --- As for the PS3 "general purpose" thing, it was 100% to get around EU tariffs. PCs were on a lower tariff than gaming consoles.
  - theshrike79 2y ago
    I'd posit that the PS5 and Xbox Series X are more "general purpose" than my iPhone. Both consoles run pretty much off the shelf PC hardware, iPhone has a custom chip. There is no valid reason why I shouldn't be able to install, say, Firefox on either of them. The architecture is there and on the Xbox even the APIs are there.
  - derstander 2y ago
    Consoles (especially under the hood the last couple of generations) look a lot more like general purpose computers than phones do.
Terretta 2y ago
> Google allows side-loading, and Steam is completely optional. You can avoid it, even on Valve's own handheld. OK, so, a completely optional market charges 30%. This means the market is comfortable with 30% and elects not to bypass that 30%. Why should Apple charge less for an experience buyers seek out?
- lxgr 2y ago
  A market charging 30% under constant threat of being cut out by a competitor is of very different value to vendors than a market charging 30% that they have no choice but sell on.