4 ms·

The only rational way to interpret D&D is not as medieval, but as a distant far-future post-post-industrial setting. Magic spells as ambient nanotech that's po

The only rational way to interpret D&D is not as medieval, but as a distant far-future post-post-industrial setting. Magic spells as ambient nanotech that's poorly understood and difficult to invoke -- hence the "Vancian" system which comes from Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" series. Magic items as remnant tech. Different "races" as the vast gulf of time has led to speciation. Gods as posthuman or artificially intelligent entities that have transcended the world but still keep an eye on it from time to time. And so forth. There's literally nothing medieval about it, but it could be 1,000,000 AD. Just think of their medical technologies in light of our era's! (All assuming, of course, that it's "baseline reality" and not a sandbox, as it was in Neal Stephenson's The Fall.)

mglz 2y ago
Or it might be a reconstruction of a broken world after the events of Ra (https://qntm.org/ra https://qntm.org/ra)
tiborsaas 2y ago
If you haven't played Horizon Zero Dawn, I highly recommend it :)
- justinclift 2y ago
  The follow on sequel was a bit hit-or-miss though. :(
kombookcha 2y ago
A very fun example of this theme is in the franco-belgian fantasy comic series Thorgal, which is set in a Conan-esque fantasy world with all the expected trappings, but in which the gods are highly advanced alien entities and magic is often framed as manipulating extremely complex and powerful heirloom technologies that the living have no frame of reference for as anything other than magic. The titular outsider hero falls from the stars in a little space pod as a baby and is raised by the local Viking-proxy culture ala Superman or Goku. Quite an engaging read if you're into this blend of sword and sorcery with background sci-fi elements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgal
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  I read "The Archers" as a kid, and really liked it, but it was the only one I had access to. I recall it was a pretty straightforward adventure, set somewhere around northern Europe in the 10th century, without any sci-fi elements... Now I'll need to revisit it and find the others. I've got a young son who would also be interested, so perhaps that's something we can do together. Thanks, man.
  - kombookcha 2y ago
    I can't immediately recall any sci-fi elements from The Archers myself, so that checks out. Anything to do with the lost precursor civilization tends more towards the archaic future-tech. Like in City Of The Lost God there's a magical weapon that's basically an operational laser gun. Or The Island of the Frozen Seas, which has a palace that looks like a downed spaceship complete with sarcophagi/crypods with people in them. And you're welcome! I hope you and your son have fun! :)
- Joker_vD 2y ago
  Honestly, "magic is ambient nanotech that's poorly understood and difficult to invoke" is a rather tired trope, because it's an instantly obvious approach one can take. Doesn't stop people from re-using it over and over, take e.g. "The Lord of the Ice Garden" by Grzędowicz: this twist is so obvious that all the build-up feels kinda insulting to the reader's intelligence.
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    Right, but I don't think that it necessarily needs to be a twist. The first two Pillars of Eternity games leaned hard into this trope, but it was never really "revealed" as a plot point -- it was just background that you uncovered as you progressed stepwise through the game. The Gods as literal hiveminds, chained to or unbound from their original core functions to varying degrees; a fallen hyper-technological society; stuff like that...
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    I've never liked it as a narrative element because it's such a handwave. If you're going to have "magic is nanotech", or whatever other backing, at least actually use that backing to put narrative rules on it that the reader can understand.
wizardforhire 2y ago
Case in point, Spelljammer https://youtube.com/watch?v=k5ulTt5Km3Y https://youtube.com/watch?v=k5ulTt5Km3Y
twoquestions 2y ago
You just described Numenera, if you've never read/played it I'd highly recommend giving it a shot! It takes place billions of years in the future in what it calls the "9th World", when some mysterious beings just went away.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  Never heard of it, but will definitely give it a shot. At this point I'd read the books only to learn more about the setting. Thank you.
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    For an anti-recommendation, my experience with it is that the setting is interesting, but the system is just a weirdly boring-yet-fiddly derivative of D&D-alikes that doesn't touch on even a fraction of the narrative potential of the setting.
    - tormeh 2y ago
      The Cypher system is definitively kinda shit. It’s easier to DM in some ways, but it’s just very unrefined, and badly in need of a 2nd edition subject to more playtesting.
eesmith 2y ago
The article concerns how to interpret OD&D. It points out "the dungeon builders were part of a coinage economy just like the current one. There hasn’t even been significant inflation or deflation since the dungeons were built.", which doesn't seem compatible with a far-future post-post industrial setting interpretation. I think "fantastic American history" is a rational description.
- panzagl 2y ago
  Not American history- set so far in the future that the idea of 'America' is as widely understood as we currently understand 'Sea Peoples'. Think Gene Wolfe's 'Book of the New Sun'
  - eesmith 2y ago
    I understand your thesis. I highlighted how the essay suggests a flaw in that interpretation. How does a currency system stay so stable across thousands of years?
    - panzagl 2y ago
      There's no evidence that it does stay stable- the author is making a lot of assumptions about the 'implied setting' of OD&D that aren't really supported by the game materials at the time. 40 silver pieces couple be 40 Roman denarii, 40 pre-1965 US quarters, or 40 chunks of a silver bracelet. They could represent the pocket change of a dungeon builder, but be a considerable sum to the barbarian that finds them. The implied uniformity is just because the author lacks imagination.
      - eesmith 2y ago
        You can't get 1 gold piece = 10 silver piece without a consistent monetary scheme. That was in OD&D at https://archive.org/details/monsters_and_treasures/page/39/mode/2up?q=gold https://archive.org/details/monsters_and_treasures/page/39/m... . Even in the US, "free silver at a ratio of 16 to 1" worked - at least somewhat - by government fiat, not commodity value. (Great, I've now got the urge to write "Gresham's Law" while I flash back to high school history class.) https://archive.org/details/dndbook1/page/15/mode/2up?q=gold https://archive.org/details/dndbook1/page/15/mode/2up?q=gold tell us that in D&D a copper, silver, or gold coin weighs 1 unit. Further, 1 silver piece = 5 copper pieces, making the D&D economic system not just bimetallism but trimetallism.
mcphage 2y ago
A lot of Japanese video games lean into this idea pretty heavily, too. It's kinda funny how the Zelda series just can't get away from it—no matter how far into the past they go, the magic is always technology from a previous civilization. Skyward Sword was supposed to be the Zelda origin story, and yet the Master Sword still has an AI companion in it from who knows where.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  As far as I remember Fi is not an AI companion, she was put into the sword by Hylia. There is all the tech in the Lanayru desert though, that is most definitely tech from an ancient civilization.
shinjitsu 2y ago
So Thundarr the Barbarian? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_4HBH6Z-Iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_4HBH6Z-Iw
slightwinder 2y ago
Does D&D even plays on earth? I remember, there are several different worlds and realms and forces travelling between them, but nothing specifically about earth. So it can play at any time, it doesn't need to be a distant future.
- SSLy 2y ago
  Mystara was earth-but-hollow, with the good stuff on the inside
cthalupa 2y ago
This is pretty much canonical. Gygax didn't lean into it as heavily as Arneson did, but Blackmoor was pretty explicitly a post-apocalyptic setting, with remnants of advanced or alien technology being ubiquitous. Flying cars, laser guns, androids...
zahlman 2y ago
... Why would people be fighting with swords and maces in such a setting? And why would the rulebook present a clear dichotomy between arcane and divine magic? Or suggest bringing in Tolkien references?

mglz 2y ago

Or it might be a reconstruction of a broken world after the events of Ra (https://qntm.org/ra https://qntm.org/ra)

tiborsaas 2y ago

If you haven't played Horizon Zero Dawn, I highly recommend it :)

justinclift 2y ago
The follow on sequel was a bit hit-or-miss though. :(

kombookcha 2y ago

A very fun example of this theme is in the franco-belgian fantasy comic series Thorgal, which is set in a Conan-esque fantasy world with all the expected trappings, but in which the gods are highly advanced alien entities and magic is often framed as manipulating extremely complex and powerful heirloom technologies that the living have no frame of reference for as anything other than magic. The titular outsider hero falls from the stars in a little space pod as a baby and is raised by the local Viking-proxy culture ala Superman or Goku. Quite an engaging read if you're into this blend of sword and sorcery with background sci-fi elements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgal

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
I read "The Archers" as a kid, and really liked it, but it was the only one I had access to. I recall it was a pretty straightforward adventure, set somewhere around northern Europe in the 10th century, without any sci-fi elements... Now I'll need to revisit it and find the others. I've got a young son who would also be interested, so perhaps that's something we can do together. Thanks, man.
- kombookcha 2y ago
  I can't immediately recall any sci-fi elements from The Archers myself, so that checks out. Anything to do with the lost precursor civilization tends more towards the archaic future-tech. Like in City Of The Lost God there's a magical weapon that's basically an operational laser gun. Or The Island of the Frozen Seas, which has a palace that looks like a downed spaceship complete with sarcophagi/crypods with people in them. And you're welcome! I hope you and your son have fun! :)
Joker_vD 2y ago
Honestly, "magic is ambient nanotech that's poorly understood and difficult to invoke" is a rather tired trope, because it's an instantly obvious approach one can take. Doesn't stop people from re-using it over and over, take e.g. "The Lord of the Ice Garden" by Grzędowicz: this twist is so obvious that all the build-up feels kinda insulting to the reader's intelligence.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  Right, but I don't think that it necessarily needs to be a twist. The first two Pillars of Eternity games leaned hard into this trope, but it was never really "revealed" as a plot point -- it was just background that you uncovered as you progressed stepwise through the game. The Gods as literal hiveminds, chained to or unbound from their original core functions to varying degrees; a fallen hyper-technological society; stuff like that...
- crooked-v 2y ago
  I've never liked it as a narrative element because it's such a handwave. If you're going to have "magic is nanotech", or whatever other backing, at least actually use that backing to put narrative rules on it that the reader can understand.

wizardforhire 2y ago

Case in point, Spelljammer https://youtube.com/watch?v=k5ulTt5Km3Y https://youtube.com/watch?v=k5ulTt5Km3Y

twoquestions 2y ago

You just described Numenera, if you've never read/played it I'd highly recommend giving it a shot! It takes place billions of years in the future in what it calls the "9th World", when some mysterious beings just went away.

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
Never heard of it, but will definitely give it a shot. At this point I'd read the books only to learn more about the setting. Thank you.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  For an anti-recommendation, my experience with it is that the setting is interesting, but the system is just a weirdly boring-yet-fiddly derivative of D&D-alikes that doesn't touch on even a fraction of the narrative potential of the setting.
  - tormeh 2y ago
    The Cypher system is definitively kinda shit. It’s easier to DM in some ways, but it’s just very unrefined, and badly in need of a 2nd edition subject to more playtesting.

eesmith 2y ago

The article concerns how to interpret OD&D. It points out "the dungeon builders were part of a coinage economy just like the current one. There hasn’t even been significant inflation or deflation since the dungeons were built.", which doesn't seem compatible with a far-future post-post industrial setting interpretation. I think "fantastic American history" is a rational description.

panzagl 2y ago
Not American history- set so far in the future that the idea of 'America' is as widely understood as we currently understand 'Sea Peoples'. Think Gene Wolfe's 'Book of the New Sun'
- eesmith 2y ago
  I understand your thesis. I highlighted how the essay suggests a flaw in that interpretation. How does a currency system stay so stable across thousands of years?
  - panzagl 2y ago
    There's no evidence that it does stay stable- the author is making a lot of assumptions about the 'implied setting' of OD&D that aren't really supported by the game materials at the time. 40 silver pieces couple be 40 Roman denarii, 40 pre-1965 US quarters, or 40 chunks of a silver bracelet. They could represent the pocket change of a dungeon builder, but be a considerable sum to the barbarian that finds them. The implied uniformity is just because the author lacks imagination.
    - eesmith 2y ago
      You can't get 1 gold piece = 10 silver piece without a consistent monetary scheme. That was in OD&D at https://archive.org/details/monsters_and_treasures/page/39/mode/2up?q=gold https://archive.org/details/monsters_and_treasures/page/39/m... . Even in the US, "free silver at a ratio of 16 to 1" worked - at least somewhat - by government fiat, not commodity value. (Great, I've now got the urge to write "Gresham's Law" while I flash back to high school history class.) https://archive.org/details/dndbook1/page/15/mode/2up?q=gold https://archive.org/details/dndbook1/page/15/mode/2up?q=gold tell us that in D&D a copper, silver, or gold coin weighs 1 unit. Further, 1 silver piece = 5 copper pieces, making the D&D economic system not just bimetallism but trimetallism.

mcphage 2y ago

A lot of Japanese video games lean into this idea pretty heavily, too. It's kinda funny how the Zelda series just can't get away from it—no matter how far into the past they go, the magic is always technology from a previous civilization. Skyward Sword was supposed to be the Zelda origin story, and yet the Master Sword still has an AI companion in it from who knows where.

bigstrat2003 2y ago
As far as I remember Fi is not an AI companion, she was put into the sword by Hylia. There is all the tech in the Lanayru desert though, that is most definitely tech from an ancient civilization.

shinjitsu 2y ago

So Thundarr the Barbarian? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_4HBH6Z-Iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_4HBH6Z-Iw

slightwinder 2y ago

Does D&D even plays on earth? I remember, there are several different worlds and realms and forces travelling between them, but nothing specifically about earth. So it can play at any time, it doesn't need to be a distant future.

SSLy 2y ago
Mystara was earth-but-hollow, with the good stuff on the inside

cthalupa 2y ago

This is pretty much canonical. Gygax didn't lean into it as heavily as Arneson did, but Blackmoor was pretty explicitly a post-apocalyptic setting, with remnants of advanced or alien technology being ubiquitous. Flying cars, laser guns, androids...

zahlman 2y ago

... Why would people be fighting with swords and maces in such a setting? And why would the rulebook present a clear dichotomy between arcane and divine magic? Or suggest bringing in Tolkien references?