4 ms·

What's wrong with energy consumption? I think you might be confusing it with greenhouse gas emissions.

by Quindecillion 2y ago

GTP 2y ago
How's the electricity you're using produced? ;)
- kragen 2y ago
  are we talking about people doing bitcoin mining or hash cracking? bitcoin mining is an extremely competitive business of finding the cheapest sources of energy and mining hardware; because the cheapest energy sources are all renewable, mining bitcoin with fossil-fuel-produced power is unprofitable. so the electricity we're using to mine bitcoin is mostly solar, wind, and hydroelectric as for the cracking, i don't think we know anything about where it was done or how much energy was needed, but if the energy cost was significant, i'd expect the solver to have done it somewhere where energy was cheap
  - yunohn 2y ago
    Finding the “cheapest” energy to do useless work, is still wasteful pollution.
    - kragen 2y ago
      'pollution'? actually no. why would you even think that?
  - BobAliceInATree 2y ago
    electricity is basically fungible (minus a distance factor). So if you're using up the cheap, renewable electricity for mining, guess what you're using for everyone else's day-to-day electricity? Yep, fossil fuels. (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-m...) One major exception to this is geothermal electricity in places like iceland where there's abundant green electricity, but you can't transport it to any neighbors. So just using renewable sources for electricity doesn't actually make mining renewable until we're in a society that's 100% renewable.
    - kragen 2y ago
      the distance factor is a primary consideration when it comes to electricity; most electricity is consumed within hundreds of kilometers from where it's produced, because only in china is there uhvdc transmission, and even inside china there isn't nearly enough uhvdc and hvdc transmission capacity to meet demand consequently, there are lots of places where there's abundant green electricity that can't be economically transported to any neighbors, which is why green electricity is cheaper than coal, nuclear, and gas energy. if it could be economically transported, it would be; instead, it is sold locally at much lower prices. only rarely is this seen by residential end-users, but in much of the world the 15-minute prices paid on the wholesale market by electric utilities are public information, so you can easily verify this as a result of that, just using renewable sources for electricity does actually make mining renewable as for the grauniad article, there are a lot of people doing unprofitable business things in lots of businesses, but they tend to be self-limiting, because those people run out of money before long
      - kragen 2y ago
        correction, since 02017, there's also uhvdc transmission in brazil from the belo monte dam. 66% of electrical generation in brazil is hydroelectric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Estreito_HVDC_transmission_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Estreito_HVDC_transmissi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Rio_HVDC_transmission_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Rio_HVDC_transmission_li...

What's wrong with energy consumption? I think you might be confusing it with greenhouse gas emissions.

GTP 2y ago

How's the electricity you're using produced? ;)

kragen 2y ago
are we talking about people doing bitcoin mining or hash cracking? bitcoin mining is an extremely competitive business of finding the cheapest sources of energy and mining hardware; because the cheapest energy sources are all renewable, mining bitcoin with fossil-fuel-produced power is unprofitable. so the electricity we're using to mine bitcoin is mostly solar, wind, and hydroelectric as for the cracking, i don't think we know anything about where it was done or how much energy was needed, but if the energy cost was significant, i'd expect the solver to have done it somewhere where energy was cheap
- yunohn 2y ago
  Finding the “cheapest” energy to do useless work, is still wasteful pollution.
  - kragen 2y ago
    'pollution'? actually no. why would you even think that?
- BobAliceInATree 2y ago
  electricity is basically fungible (minus a distance factor). So if you're using up the cheap, renewable electricity for mining, guess what you're using for everyone else's day-to-day electricity? Yep, fossil fuels. (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-m...) One major exception to this is geothermal electricity in places like iceland where there's abundant green electricity, but you can't transport it to any neighbors. So just using renewable sources for electricity doesn't actually make mining renewable until we're in a society that's 100% renewable.
  - kragen 2y ago
    the distance factor is a primary consideration when it comes to electricity; most electricity is consumed within hundreds of kilometers from where it's produced, because only in china is there uhvdc transmission, and even inside china there isn't nearly enough uhvdc and hvdc transmission capacity to meet demand consequently, there are lots of places where there's abundant green electricity that can't be economically transported to any neighbors, which is why green electricity is cheaper than coal, nuclear, and gas energy. if it could be economically transported, it would be; instead, it is sold locally at much lower prices. only rarely is this seen by residential end-users, but in much of the world the 15-minute prices paid on the wholesale market by electric utilities are public information, so you can easily verify this as a result of that, just using renewable sources for electricity does actually make mining renewable as for the grauniad article, there are a lot of people doing unprofitable business things in lots of businesses, but they tend to be self-limiting, because those people run out of money before long
    - kragen 2y ago
      correction, since 02017, there's also uhvdc transmission in brazil from the belo monte dam. 66% of electrical generation in brazil is hydroelectric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Estreito_HVDC_transmission_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Estreito_HVDC_transmissi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Rio_HVDC_transmission_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingu-Rio_HVDC_transmission_li...