6 ms·

So, there's no space in a mac for a ethernet port? what's the advantage or serializing a pci-e bus into some 4 or so pins? They must be certain that ethernet p

by gcb 14y ago

So, there's no space in a mac for a ethernet port? what's the advantage or serializing a pci-e bus into some 4 or so pins? They must be certain that ethernet port is a thing of the past.

metatronscube 14y ago
I'm a network Engineer and even I have to work hard to remember the last time I used an Ethernet port. Configuring routers and switches and testing scenarios are mostly done remotely via labs (although I do configure and test locally a lot as well) As far as end user goes and my daily life outside work, I very rarely use Ethernet. I suspect the average user just doesn't have the need for it any more.
- mixmastamyk 14y ago
  If you use voip or do any online gaming a wired connection is faster and more reliable. I suspect the average user uses one of these. They should just make a thinner ethernet jack.
  - bodhi 14y ago
    Right, and they could give you a dongle that had a proper RJ45 jack on the other end! Er... hang on...
    - mixmastamyk 14y ago
      Yes, could be a converter cable, could be a dumb dongle. Either would be cheaper.
      - lmm 14y ago
        The price is all Apple markup; the actual chip costs pennies.
  - ghshephard 14y ago
    VOIP? You just identified the _single_ example of an application that has minimal requirements for bandwidth (on the order of 30-40 kbits/sec is fine). I live, eat, breath on Skype, have never had a single Skype call over a wired connection. Ironically, the one persistent flaw in my recent Skype calls have been my comcast line that periodically starts dropping 3-5% of it's packets so I've had to switch over to tethering over my iPad with Verizon's Data (also wireless - so, Wireless WIFI from my MBAir over Wireless LTE) - Rock solid.
    - mixmastamyk 14y ago
      Bandwidth isn't the problem, rather dropped packets and increased latency. Neither are fatal, but add to poor experience voip has been compared to a pots connection.
      - ghshephard 14y ago
        So - I will agree that dropped packets are a problem (I'm having them myself with Comcast Cable - argh!!) - but WiFi connections, except under the most _extreme_ circumstances, don't ever drop packets unless you have a RF/hardware problem that is unusual. (Or Contention - which is why I don't like to share WiFi on a consumer Wireless router) Latency over WiFi is < 1ms - which should be imperceptible to VOIP. I should set up a Skype call from my MacBook Air tethered to my iPad over Verizon LTE to you - this really is a much worse scenario than WiFi - 35ms latency, about 1% packet loss - than my WiFi connection - but I still bet you would hear stellar voice quality (over my MBAir's Mic, no less!) Honestly - WiFi really, really is not a problem with VOIP unless you have some contention, RF disturbance or really poor connectivity - something else is going on with you - I've done lots of Voice Tests ahead of important meetings when I'm presenting just to be 100% certain that my call/voice quality was 100% - and it's always been with Skype over WiFi.
ghshephard 14y ago
The 5% of users that do need an ethernet cable will be well served with a thunderbolt/USBx adapter without holding back the other 95% of us greedy bastards who continue to demand thinner/lighter.
andreasklinger 14y ago
Don't you think it is? I can't remember the lasttime i used an eth cable (apart of testing the network/router)
- kelnos 14y ago
  I use one every day. WiFi is unreliable and slow.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  Depends. Ethernet cables have saved me quite a few times while installing Linux. (But that's irrelevant to apple, they don't even need to concern themselves with drivers.) Besides that I haven't really needed an ethernet cord all that often for my laptop. (Or at all really.) For my desktop, depending on your definition of "use" (If that means installing an ethernet cable, or connecting to a network with one.) I last used one a few weeks ago, or right now.
  - rogerbinns 14y ago
    On the Mac you can enter wireless network information in the equivalent of the BIOS menu so wireless networking is available early on. About the only time I physically connect some of my machines is for a network boot to install Linux.
- X-Istence 14y ago
  Those of us who work in classified locations or on classified projects are not allowed to use wireless. Also, since when have we been able to push 1000 Mbps over Wireless?
  - codeka 14y ago
    I'd say that particular use case is rather uncommon. It's not that wired ethernet is never required, just that wireless is perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of users.
    - 14y ago
maybird 14y ago
Perhaps the average consumer's satisfied with wireless speeds, and it would make economic sense to reduce the production cost of the average system by removing the ethernet port.
ROFISH 14y ago
Funnily enough, yes, there is not enough space. If you look at the Macbook Air or the new Retina Macbook Pro, the cross-section is too small for a full-sized ethernet port. For reference, the ethernet port takes up the entire height of the "old" MBP.
fiatpandas 14y ago
Even if they wanted to include ethernet, the retina MBP is so thin it wouldn't be able to fit an ethernet port along the edge. Look at this image for reference: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1183987/mbp_comparison.jpg http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1183987/mbp_comparison.jpg It barely fits on the normal MBP. The only way it could fit on the edge of the Retina was if they cut through the bevel, which would be ugly.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
In a Macbook Air? No, there certainly isn't. Even other notebook manufacturers are hitting a thiness where ethernet is not possible. They just have tacky hinge pieces that fold down to allow the ethernet connector to slide in.
sern 14y ago
Interestingly, the Retina MBP has a combo Ethernet MAC/PHY + memory card reader chip of which they're only using the latter function. I would guess that either the decision to drop the Ethernet port was made pretty late in the process or the board designers were kept in the dark about the mechanical design until it was too late to pick a different part. Also, a PCI-E lane actually is 4 pins :) Edit: reply to dead - standalone memory card reader ICs are standard components. The USB SD ICs they used in earlier models would have been easier to route (than the PCI-E combo chip) and probably cheaper.
- Morg 14y ago
  Well you guess wrong, Apple doesn't get much stuff made for them specifically, far less in the PC segment. I.E. they mostly use standard components, and that would be why they have a combo chip instead of the right stuff, as in many cases. Their SSDs are overclocked mSATA where they should be pcie, and there are many more stupid design decisions or just ease of production compromises that I won't even take the time to look at the black pcb to find out. Main thing is, most companies have suboptimal PCBs, and that doesn't matter much.
- gte910h 14y ago
  They have a SD card reader
- gmac 14y ago
  I note from Anandtech's review that there were serious problems with the SD reader in earlier models, so perhaps they were deliberately avoiding those ICs?
masklinn 14y ago
> So, there's no space in a mac for a ethernet port? There isn't even enough depth in the machine, they would need to cut out through the lid to have the room to put an ethernet port (not even talking about the Air there, just the new MBP). Even on the current "pro" macbooks, there is only a thin piece of case above and below the ethernet port (about a third of a mm), and the new MBP is significantly thinner[0] > what's the advantage or serializing a pci-e bus into some 4 or so pins? Flexibility, speed, and doubles as a video adapter (and a PCI-e lane is 4 wires already, the work is not there) [0] http://www.zdnet.co.uk/i/z5/illo/nw/story_graphics/12june/macbook-pro-retina-martin-7.jpg http://www.zdnet.co.uk/i/z5/illo/nw/story_graphics/12june/ma... bottom is the old MBP, top is the new one, note how the flat side of the new MBP is barely thicker than a USB port.
- hammock 14y ago
  You could always orient the ethernet port so it is sticking out the top of the body (or even the bottom, with a cutout to allow the wire to exist under the body) rather than the side. Of course this is far from an elegant solution, but it's not 100% accurate to say the MBP is "too thin" for an ethernet port. edit: I did not expect such response to this comment, I think it's quite funny :)
  - Flow 14y ago
    And make it look like a FrankenBook Pro? :-/
  - caladri 14y ago
    This seems like a silly point to pick on. Why is the MBP so thin? Because of design considerations and the desires of the target market. The design considerations are a serious component of the Apple brand, perhaps the single most distinguishing component. To compromise on the design to work-around the thinness which is in service to the design would just be pointless. It may not be accurate and complete and without flaw, but it is a reasonable reduction of the reality of Apple hardware to an understandable and useful form. The difference in thickness is profound, and would have been compromised itself, or have forced a compromise elsewhere in the design of the base hardware platform, without the removal of the Ethernet port due to physical space constraints that arose from the level of space reduction that was possible with this revision of hardware. I think that's a pretty interesting point. The Thunderbolt adapter is a design compromise and a crappy one, but it is a general-purpose one (i.e. there is a consistent peripheral platform) and one that will not impact the vast majority of users. Copper Ethernet is not at the top of Apple laptop users' desire, as one might note conversely design is. There's a sort of elegance in systematizing the edge cases and making the base case streamlined, minimal, satisfactory, beautiful and shockingly-thin.
haberman 14y ago
A Thunderbolt port can be Ethernet, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, or native Thunderbolt. The flexibility of that makes a port that can only be Ethernet seem like a total waste of space (especially at twice the size).
ricardobeat 14y ago
> They must be certain that ethernet port is a thing of the past And they are probably right. For consumer applications, wi-fi already fulfills most needs right now (faster than most internet connections and spinning HDs), and it's getting faster[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac
gcb 14y ago
I stand corrected. Pcie can be 4pin (same pinage as usb, power and data pairs) if you drop lane, jtag, smbus and intelligent power support

by gcb 14y ago

So, there's no space in a mac for a ethernet port? what's the advantage or serializing a pci-e bus into some 4 or so pins? They must be certain that ethernet port is a thing of the past.

metatronscube 14y ago

I'm a network Engineer and even I have to work hard to remember the last time I used an Ethernet port. Configuring routers and switches and testing scenarios are mostly done remotely via labs (although I do configure and test locally a lot as well) As far as end user goes and my daily life outside work, I very rarely use Ethernet. I suspect the average user just doesn't have the need for it any more.

mixmastamyk 14y ago
If you use voip or do any online gaming a wired connection is faster and more reliable. I suspect the average user uses one of these. They should just make a thinner ethernet jack.
- bodhi 14y ago
  Right, and they could give you a dongle that had a proper RJ45 jack on the other end! Er... hang on...
  - mixmastamyk 14y ago
    Yes, could be a converter cable, could be a dumb dongle. Either would be cheaper.
    - lmm 14y ago
      The price is all Apple markup; the actual chip costs pennies.
- ghshephard 14y ago
  VOIP? You just identified the _single_ example of an application that has minimal requirements for bandwidth (on the order of 30-40 kbits/sec is fine). I live, eat, breath on Skype, have never had a single Skype call over a wired connection. Ironically, the one persistent flaw in my recent Skype calls have been my comcast line that periodically starts dropping 3-5% of it's packets so I've had to switch over to tethering over my iPad with Verizon's Data (also wireless - so, Wireless WIFI from my MBAir over Wireless LTE) - Rock solid.
  - mixmastamyk 14y ago
    Bandwidth isn't the problem, rather dropped packets and increased latency. Neither are fatal, but add to poor experience voip has been compared to a pots connection.
    - ghshephard 14y ago
      So - I will agree that dropped packets are a problem (I'm having them myself with Comcast Cable - argh!!) - but WiFi connections, except under the most _extreme_ circumstances, don't ever drop packets unless you have a RF/hardware problem that is unusual. (Or Contention - which is why I don't like to share WiFi on a consumer Wireless router) Latency over WiFi is < 1ms - which should be imperceptible to VOIP. I should set up a Skype call from my MacBook Air tethered to my iPad over Verizon LTE to you - this really is a much worse scenario than WiFi - 35ms latency, about 1% packet loss - than my WiFi connection - but I still bet you would hear stellar voice quality (over my MBAir's Mic, no less!) Honestly - WiFi really, really is not a problem with VOIP unless you have some contention, RF disturbance or really poor connectivity - something else is going on with you - I've done lots of Voice Tests ahead of important meetings when I'm presenting just to be 100% certain that my call/voice quality was 100% - and it's always been with Skype over WiFi.

ghshephard 14y ago

The 5% of users that do need an ethernet cable will be well served with a thunderbolt/USBx adapter without holding back the other 95% of us greedy bastards who continue to demand thinner/lighter.

andreasklinger 14y ago

Don't you think it is? I can't remember the lasttime i used an eth cable (apart of testing the network/router)

kelnos 14y ago
I use one every day. WiFi is unreliable and slow.
unimpressive 14y ago
Depends. Ethernet cables have saved me quite a few times while installing Linux. (But that's irrelevant to apple, they don't even need to concern themselves with drivers.) Besides that I haven't really needed an ethernet cord all that often for my laptop. (Or at all really.) For my desktop, depending on your definition of "use" (If that means installing an ethernet cable, or connecting to a network with one.) I last used one a few weeks ago, or right now.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  On the Mac you can enter wireless network information in the equivalent of the BIOS menu so wireless networking is available early on. About the only time I physically connect some of my machines is for a network boot to install Linux.
X-Istence 14y ago
Those of us who work in classified locations or on classified projects are not allowed to use wireless. Also, since when have we been able to push 1000 Mbps over Wireless?
- codeka 14y ago
  I'd say that particular use case is rather uncommon. It's not that wired ethernet is never required, just that wireless is perfectly acceptable for the vast majority of users.
  - 14y ago

maybird 14y ago

Perhaps the average consumer's satisfied with wireless speeds, and it would make economic sense to reduce the production cost of the average system by removing the ethernet port.

ROFISH 14y ago

Funnily enough, yes, there is not enough space. If you look at the Macbook Air or the new Retina Macbook Pro, the cross-section is too small for a full-sized ethernet port. For reference, the ethernet port takes up the entire height of the "old" MBP.

fiatpandas 14y ago

Even if they wanted to include ethernet, the retina MBP is so thin it wouldn't be able to fit an ethernet port along the edge. Look at this image for reference: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1183987/mbp_comparison.jpg http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1183987/mbp_comparison.jpg It barely fits on the normal MBP. The only way it could fit on the edge of the Retina was if they cut through the bevel, which would be ugly.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

In a Macbook Air? No, there certainly isn't. Even other notebook manufacturers are hitting a thiness where ethernet is not possible. They just have tacky hinge pieces that fold down to allow the ethernet connector to slide in.

sern 14y ago

Interestingly, the Retina MBP has a combo Ethernet MAC/PHY + memory card reader chip of which they're only using the latter function. I would guess that either the decision to drop the Ethernet port was made pretty late in the process or the board designers were kept in the dark about the mechanical design until it was too late to pick a different part. Also, a PCI-E lane actually is 4 pins :) Edit: reply to dead - standalone memory card reader ICs are standard components. The USB SD ICs they used in earlier models would have been easier to route (than the PCI-E combo chip) and probably cheaper.

Morg 14y ago
Well you guess wrong, Apple doesn't get much stuff made for them specifically, far less in the PC segment. I.E. they mostly use standard components, and that would be why they have a combo chip instead of the right stuff, as in many cases. Their SSDs are overclocked mSATA where they should be pcie, and there are many more stupid design decisions or just ease of production compromises that I won't even take the time to look at the black pcb to find out. Main thing is, most companies have suboptimal PCBs, and that doesn't matter much.
gte910h 14y ago
They have a SD card reader
gmac 14y ago
I note from Anandtech's review that there were serious problems with the SD reader in earlier models, so perhaps they were deliberately avoiding those ICs?

masklinn 14y ago

> So, there's no space in a mac for a ethernet port? There isn't even enough depth in the machine, they would need to cut out through the lid to have the room to put an ethernet port (not even talking about the Air there, just the new MBP). Even on the current "pro" macbooks, there is only a thin piece of case above and below the ethernet port (about a third of a mm), and the new MBP is significantly thinner[0] > what's the advantage or serializing a pci-e bus into some 4 or so pins? Flexibility, speed, and doubles as a video adapter (and a PCI-e lane is 4 wires already, the work is not there) [0] http://www.zdnet.co.uk/i/z5/illo/nw/story_graphics/12june/macbook-pro-retina-martin-7.jpg http://www.zdnet.co.uk/i/z5/illo/nw/story_graphics/12june/ma... bottom is the old MBP, top is the new one, note how the flat side of the new MBP is barely thicker than a USB port.

hammock 14y ago
You could always orient the ethernet port so it is sticking out the top of the body (or even the bottom, with a cutout to allow the wire to exist under the body) rather than the side. Of course this is far from an elegant solution, but it's not 100% accurate to say the MBP is "too thin" for an ethernet port. edit: I did not expect such response to this comment, I think it's quite funny :)
- Flow 14y ago
  And make it look like a FrankenBook Pro? :-/
- caladri 14y ago
  This seems like a silly point to pick on. Why is the MBP so thin? Because of design considerations and the desires of the target market. The design considerations are a serious component of the Apple brand, perhaps the single most distinguishing component. To compromise on the design to work-around the thinness which is in service to the design would just be pointless. It may not be accurate and complete and without flaw, but it is a reasonable reduction of the reality of Apple hardware to an understandable and useful form. The difference in thickness is profound, and would have been compromised itself, or have forced a compromise elsewhere in the design of the base hardware platform, without the removal of the Ethernet port due to physical space constraints that arose from the level of space reduction that was possible with this revision of hardware. I think that's a pretty interesting point. The Thunderbolt adapter is a design compromise and a crappy one, but it is a general-purpose one (i.e. there is a consistent peripheral platform) and one that will not impact the vast majority of users. Copper Ethernet is not at the top of Apple laptop users' desire, as one might note conversely design is. There's a sort of elegance in systematizing the edge cases and making the base case streamlined, minimal, satisfactory, beautiful and shockingly-thin.

haberman 14y ago

A Thunderbolt port can be Ethernet, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, or native Thunderbolt. The flexibility of that makes a port that can only be Ethernet seem like a total waste of space (especially at twice the size).

ricardobeat 14y ago

> They must be certain that ethernet port is a thing of the past And they are probably right. For consumer applications, wi-fi already fulfills most needs right now (faster than most internet connections and spinning HDs), and it's getting faster[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac

gcb 14y ago

I stand corrected. Pcie can be 4pin (same pinage as usb, power and data pairs) if you drop lane, jtag, smbus and intelligent power support