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But how could he have avoided this attack? I'm only familiar with Bitcoin's blockchain on a begginner level. But I assume the only way would be to avoid reveali

But how could he have avoided this attack? I'm only familiar with Bitcoin's blockchain on a begginner level. But I assume the only way would be to avoid revealing the answer key (public) when sending the transaction to get the reward?

drexlspivey 2y ago
One way would be to not broadcast the transaction publicly but send it to a mining pool directly
hoerzu 2y ago
Private mempool transaction
- nkrisc 2y ago
  I’m a relatively smart person, probably above average, but glad bitcoin hasn’t taken over banking because I don’t understand any of this.
  - a_dabbler 2y ago
    You don't need to. Most of us will never understand the complexity of banking either
    - zeagle 2y ago
      You mean the one where someone else pays a higher ATM fee and scoops my cheque deposit? We can talk about reduced bits in the puzzle vs a regular transaction but when you need to consider how you are going to safely claim your money as if you are laundering you have to admit this is a little nuts.
      - pushedx 2y ago
        The only reason that this opportunity exists to swoop in and forge a transaction is that the reward in question is a reward for fundamentally breaking a weak version of the cryptography underlying the BTC blockchain, the technqiue for which happens to have a second mathematical weakness. No other transactions are subject to this weakness, and it's this puzzle which proves that.
      - chr15m 2y ago
        idk $34 billion in annual global card fraud is also a little nuts.
      - stavros 2y ago
        You're discounting how nuts it is that a third party has veto over whether you can spend your money and how.
        zeagle 2y ago
        I think it's part of living in a society with rules and law. It also protects me from rampant fraud and theft and also helps ensure taxes are paid for the benefits I use like roads, hospitals, and education.
  - hoerzu 2y ago
    You can run your own node and then mine the transaction into the block or use private pools. Look up MEV
  - gosub100 2y ago
    I've never used any coins in my life, but I think what is unique here is that the reward IS the entire wallet itself, not just a transaction from the "contest holder". They revealed many of the bits of the private key already. Somehow, you cannot use the wallet without briefly revealing the rest of the private bits.
  - hammeiam 2y ago
    Yes, no such thing as dark pools in traditional finance /s
Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
There is actually no way to avoid this, aside from setting the Fee nearly to the reward. It's essentially MitM all the way down. even the private mempool can attempt a double-spend with a larger fee, get one transaction ahead, then try to maintain an edge long enough to be the "longest branch" for consensus - the 51% attack only needs 33% in reality, much less when your the private mempool that can take advantage of the birthday paradox to jump two blocks ahead. you have to literally mine your own coin with the reward transaction included. of course, zpk+ would solve this issue entirely. Alice and Bob wouldn't ever doubt each other again.
- kfrzcode 2y ago
  Of course, you could avoid this entirely with Hedera HBAR and fair consensus on the hashgraph. But the puzzles are on BTC where the money is.
- sourraspberry 2y ago
  Isn't this a bit insane? Does this not imply the entire Bitcoin protocol is fundamentally flawed?
  - loopdoend 2y ago
    No because it is not normal to have such low entropy for private keys. It wasn't designed with these puzzles in mind, nor should it be.
    - fernandopj 2y ago
      Your reply and Jerrrrrrry's closed this understanding for me. The attack itself can't be mitigated because there's the incentive to try to force the blockchain with your own theft block because your fee is much higher for what appears to be the same transaction. But this attack, like you said, is only feasible for this niche domain of low entropy private keys.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    The bitcoin protocol isn't fundamentally flawed, but it is fundamentally outdated. If it wasn't for public bitcoin/crypto FOMO, bitcoin would have been deprecated years ago.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

drexlspivey 2y ago

One way would be to not broadcast the transaction publicly but send it to a mining pool directly

hoerzu 2y ago

Private mempool transaction

nkrisc 2y ago
I’m a relatively smart person, probably above average, but glad bitcoin hasn’t taken over banking because I don’t understand any of this.
- a_dabbler 2y ago
  You don't need to. Most of us will never understand the complexity of banking either
  - zeagle 2y ago
    You mean the one where someone else pays a higher ATM fee and scoops my cheque deposit? We can talk about reduced bits in the puzzle vs a regular transaction but when you need to consider how you are going to safely claim your money as if you are laundering you have to admit this is a little nuts.
    - pushedx 2y ago
      The only reason that this opportunity exists to swoop in and forge a transaction is that the reward in question is a reward for fundamentally breaking a weak version of the cryptography underlying the BTC blockchain, the technqiue for which happens to have a second mathematical weakness. No other transactions are subject to this weakness, and it's this puzzle which proves that.
    - chr15m 2y ago
      idk $34 billion in annual global card fraud is also a little nuts.
    - stavros 2y ago
      You're discounting how nuts it is that a third party has veto over whether you can spend your money and how.
      - zeagle 2y ago
        I think it's part of living in a society with rules and law. It also protects me from rampant fraud and theft and also helps ensure taxes are paid for the benefits I use like roads, hospitals, and education.
- hoerzu 2y ago
  You can run your own node and then mine the transaction into the block or use private pools. Look up MEV
- gosub100 2y ago
  I've never used any coins in my life, but I think what is unique here is that the reward IS the entire wallet itself, not just a transaction from the "contest holder". They revealed many of the bits of the private key already. Somehow, you cannot use the wallet without briefly revealing the rest of the private bits.
- hammeiam 2y ago
  Yes, no such thing as dark pools in traditional finance /s

Jerrrrrrry 2y ago

There is actually no way to avoid this, aside from setting the Fee nearly to the reward. It's essentially MitM all the way down. even the private mempool can attempt a double-spend with a larger fee, get one transaction ahead, then try to maintain an edge long enough to be the "longest branch" for consensus - the 51% attack only needs 33% in reality, much less when your the private mempool that can take advantage of the birthday paradox to jump two blocks ahead. you have to literally mine your own coin with the reward transaction included. of course, zpk+ would solve this issue entirely. Alice and Bob wouldn't ever doubt each other again.

kfrzcode 2y ago
Of course, you could avoid this entirely with Hedera HBAR and fair consensus on the hashgraph. But the puzzles are on BTC where the money is.
sourraspberry 2y ago
Isn't this a bit insane? Does this not imply the entire Bitcoin protocol is fundamentally flawed?
- loopdoend 2y ago
  No because it is not normal to have such low entropy for private keys. It wasn't designed with these puzzles in mind, nor should it be.
  - fernandopj 2y ago
    Your reply and Jerrrrrrry's closed this understanding for me. The attack itself can't be mitigated because there's the incentive to try to force the blockchain with your own theft block because your fee is much higher for what appears to be the same transaction. But this attack, like you said, is only feasible for this niche domain of low entropy private keys.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  The bitcoin protocol isn't fundamentally flawed, but it is fundamentally outdated. If it wasn't for public bitcoin/crypto FOMO, bitcoin would have been deprecated years ago.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]