4 ms·

It boggles the mind that you can just send an email to the police and they'd act as if whoever is targeted by that email is in fact a dangerous criminal and the

by smsm42 2y ago

It boggles the mind that you can just send an email to the police and they'd act as if whoever is targeted by that email is in fact a dangerous criminal and they'd arrest them and subject them to all kinds of humiliation and harassment and mistreatment - just based on a single unsubstantiated email. I thought this idiocy is endemic only to the US police but it looks like German police is the same too? And people just accept it as normal? I mean kudos to German police not rushing in with guns drawn and not treating the scene like they are in the Battle of Falluja, but it is still fscking insane - why did they have to cuff him and subject him to a hour-long questioning at the station - what did it take them an hour to find out? Why is all this considered normal?

lolinder 2y ago
> I mean kudos to German police not rushing in with guns drawn and not treating the scene like they are in the Battle of Falluja, Sounds like the second half yes, but according to his story in the YouTube comments they did have weapons drawn (one being maybe a taser, but presumably the rest were firearms?): > Unsuspecting - I assumed someone else was missing or there had been a break-in - when I opened the door I was confronted by a good 10 police officers with drawn weapons and at least one with what looked to me like a Taser. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA
Marsymars 2y ago
> It boggles the mind that you can just send an email to the police and they'd act as if whoever is targeted by that email is in fact a dangerous criminal and they'd arrest them and subject them to all kinds of humiliation and harassment and mistreatment - just based on a single unsubstantiated email. Well it kind of makes sense if you believe people are generally going to follow social norms and not make false accusations for no reasons. Like, all you have to do in a crowded theatre is shout "FIRE", and everyone acts as if there's a dangerous situation and everyone is subjected to being forced out of the theatre based on a single unsubstantiated shout. Or if you put your mind to it, there are any number of false, anonymous allegations one can make with large asymmetries between the effort to make the allegation and the effort required to clean up the situation.
- AdrianB1 2y ago
  It does not matter you believe, accusations should not be enough to swat someone. Accusations != proof and proof is what matters.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    The problem is that those are not typically accusations, those are reported emergencies. If you see your neighbor, for example, actively trying to kill his wife during a domestic incident, the last thing the police should do is sit on that report and carefully investigate whether that is true. They should act, because it might be a life or death scenario. What logically follows, is that false reports like this should come with very heavy punishment. I would say at least as grave as attempted murder.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - beaglesss 2y ago
      Make it simple, equal ground rules for police as citizens. If it's illegal for me to point a gun at someone because someone told me a scary, it ought be the same as police. The dichotomy exhibits the standing army effect the founders warned against .
      - snapplebobapple 2y ago
        Its more compli ated than that. What percentage of scaries told to you are credible vs what percentage for the police? i dont think this should happen but i also recognize its a complex issue
    - smsm42 2y ago
      If it's not typical, it should be seen more skeptical, not less. If I say my neighbors are witches who worship the devil, and are going to summon legions of Hell to earth this evening, then the police shouldn't start with burning their house down, with them inside, just in case. They should first try some other means of verifying this highly unusual claim, before acting on it as if it were true. I am reasonably sure the prior of that email being true, based on all previous emails they've received in that police department, is less than 1%. And yet, after that, and after already finding out there's no murder happening on the scene and no emergency at all, they still behaved as if the victim is the criminal. And I am sure they didn't even get politely reprimanded by that - probably they were praised by their peers and their managament for quick and decisive action.
mdp2021 2y ago
> It boggles the mind that you can just send an email ... and they'd act as if May I remind you of the phenomenon of "We severed work relationship with worker W after he was accused of horrible acts, to protect ourselves". (When proper mindset is, "Having severed work relationship with worker W after allegations, they are vilified" - logically speaking.) It is unfortunate we embraced base-10, because few levels of magnitude are available to describe the downfall: now we should talk about "1-digit IQs".
- 0points 2y ago
  I am having a hard time understanding what you mean.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    In general you have not been the only one, but I don't see many difficulties in that post. The OP wrote that «unsubstantiated» accusations are sufficient for some police forces to take an abusive stance forgetful of the principle of general cautiousness, of "innocent until proven". I replied that the neglect of Presumption of Innocence can not only be seen in the attitude of some police forces, but in chunks of society, such as enterprises - notably, in some systems firms will openly fire people hit by accusations of the class "Tom says that Dick" (which entails, "of thin grounds"). Now, given that anybody could be randomly accused, and given other logical collaterals such as involving the principle of reciprocity ("the employer discharging the accused could be next"), that "practice" is especially barbaric - those who employ it paint themselves in a most vile coat. And given the absurdity of the practice from points of view of reason, I suggested that speaking of "two-digits IQ" for lurking social phenomena like this one may not be enough.
senectus1 2y ago
Some loon just tried to shoot Donald Trump AGAIN... I can imagine that the police in the US are going to be very twitchy
raxxorraxor 2y ago
German police really likes raiding homes for trivialities. This is a completely underdeveloped issue in Germany and legislative, judicative and executive branches are misbehaving here. Old and fearful population will ensure this doesn't change in the near future. If they had a button to just gas home inhabitants...

by smsm42 2y ago

lolinder 2y ago

> I mean kudos to German police not rushing in with guns drawn and not treating the scene like they are in the Battle of Falluja, Sounds like the second half yes, but according to his story in the YouTube comments they did have weapons drawn (one being maybe a taser, but presumably the rest were firearms?): > Unsuspecting - I assumed someone else was missing or there had been a break-in - when I opened the door I was confronted by a good 10 police officers with drawn weapons and at least one with what looked to me like a Taser. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIEwcTKUFCA

Marsymars 2y ago

> It boggles the mind that you can just send an email to the police and they'd act as if whoever is targeted by that email is in fact a dangerous criminal and they'd arrest them and subject them to all kinds of humiliation and harassment and mistreatment - just based on a single unsubstantiated email. Well it kind of makes sense if you believe people are generally going to follow social norms and not make false accusations for no reasons. Like, all you have to do in a crowded theatre is shout "FIRE", and everyone acts as if there's a dangerous situation and everyone is subjected to being forced out of the theatre based on a single unsubstantiated shout. Or if you put your mind to it, there are any number of false, anonymous allegations one can make with large asymmetries between the effort to make the allegation and the effort required to clean up the situation.

AdrianB1 2y ago
It does not matter you believe, accusations should not be enough to swat someone. Accusations != proof and proof is what matters.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  The problem is that those are not typically accusations, those are reported emergencies. If you see your neighbor, for example, actively trying to kill his wife during a domestic incident, the last thing the police should do is sit on that report and carefully investigate whether that is true. They should act, because it might be a life or death scenario. What logically follows, is that false reports like this should come with very heavy punishment. I would say at least as grave as attempted murder.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - beaglesss 2y ago
    Make it simple, equal ground rules for police as citizens. If it's illegal for me to point a gun at someone because someone told me a scary, it ought be the same as police. The dichotomy exhibits the standing army effect the founders warned against .
    - snapplebobapple 2y ago
      Its more compli ated than that. What percentage of scaries told to you are credible vs what percentage for the police? i dont think this should happen but i also recognize its a complex issue
  - smsm42 2y ago
    If it's not typical, it should be seen more skeptical, not less. If I say my neighbors are witches who worship the devil, and are going to summon legions of Hell to earth this evening, then the police shouldn't start with burning their house down, with them inside, just in case. They should first try some other means of verifying this highly unusual claim, before acting on it as if it were true. I am reasonably sure the prior of that email being true, based on all previous emails they've received in that police department, is less than 1%. And yet, after that, and after already finding out there's no murder happening on the scene and no emergency at all, they still behaved as if the victim is the criminal. And I am sure they didn't even get politely reprimanded by that - probably they were praised by their peers and their managament for quick and decisive action.

mdp2021 2y ago

> It boggles the mind that you can just send an email ... and they'd act as if May I remind you of the phenomenon of "We severed work relationship with worker W after he was accused of horrible acts, to protect ourselves". (When proper mindset is, "Having severed work relationship with worker W after allegations, they are vilified" - logically speaking.) It is unfortunate we embraced base-10, because few levels of magnitude are available to describe the downfall: now we should talk about "1-digit IQs".

0points 2y ago
I am having a hard time understanding what you mean.
- mdp2021 2y ago
  In general you have not been the only one, but I don't see many difficulties in that post. The OP wrote that «unsubstantiated» accusations are sufficient for some police forces to take an abusive stance forgetful of the principle of general cautiousness, of "innocent until proven". I replied that the neglect of Presumption of Innocence can not only be seen in the attitude of some police forces, but in chunks of society, such as enterprises - notably, in some systems firms will openly fire people hit by accusations of the class "Tom says that Dick" (which entails, "of thin grounds"). Now, given that anybody could be randomly accused, and given other logical collaterals such as involving the principle of reciprocity ("the employer discharging the accused could be next"), that "practice" is especially barbaric - those who employ it paint themselves in a most vile coat. And given the absurdity of the practice from points of view of reason, I suggested that speaking of "two-digits IQ" for lurking social phenomena like this one may not be enough.

senectus1 2y ago

Some loon just tried to shoot Donald Trump AGAIN... I can imagine that the police in the US are going to be very twitchy

raxxorraxor 2y ago

German police really likes raiding homes for trivialities. This is a completely underdeveloped issue in Germany and legislative, judicative and executive branches are misbehaving here. Old and fearful population will ensure this doesn't change in the near future. If they had a button to just gas home inhabitants...