10 ms·

Makes me angry to see Apple bragging about their green credentials when the products are destined to become e-waste faster than necessary due to inevitable batt

Makes me angry to see Apple bragging about their green credentials when the products are destined to become e-waste faster than necessary due to inevitable battery degradation and intentionally difficult battery replacement. (Even worse when it's a $3K+ laptop and not just a phone. With a keyboard as well as a battery that'll wear over time, neither designed to support repair/replacement. Not sure if the newer models are as bad, but M1 MBP keycaps wear terribly) The biggest upgrade they could give to the iPhone right now is a method of replacing the battery that doesn't require dealing with applying heat and removing adhesives, let alone batteries being cryptographically paired to a phone. But they want to sell entire $1000+ phone/$3000+ laptop upgrades, not replacement batteries.

Schiendelman 2y ago
What kind of battery are you imagining doesn't eventually degrade?
- kelnos 2y ago
  I think the point was the difficulty and expense of replacement, not that the battery degrades.
- fsflover 2y ago
  The OP didn't imagine non-degradable batteries, just easily replaceable ones.
- bluescrn 2y ago
  The point is that the battery is a consumable part. It should be easy to replace. Not everyone lives near an Apple Store, and phones are so essential to people that they're not likely to be prepared to mail their phone off for service.
  - tpmoney 2y ago
    > Not everyone lives near an Apple Store Sure but how many people: 1) don't live near an Apple Store 2) don't live near any AASP (like Best Buy) 3) don't live near any one of the many 3rd party repair shops that do these replacement daily 4) don't have the mechanical and technical skills do do the replacement themselves by ordering the parts (and possibly renting tools) from Apple 5) and also have $1k+ to be spending on a new iPhone every time the battery degrades too much
    - inferiorhuman 2y ago
      Don't forget: 6) and are also unwilling to send their phone to Apple for repair
    - bluescrn 2y ago
      > 4) don't have the mechanical and technical skills do do the replacement themselves by ordering the parts (and possibly renting tools) from Apple There's several YouTube videos explaining how ridiculous this process is (renting the 'proper tools' from Apple). It's another attempt by Apple to justify repair-resistant devices by claiming it requires massive cases of specialised tools to do even the most basic repairs. Which maybe it does, but only because the devices aren't designed to be repaired...
      - burnerthrow008 2y ago
        Apple hasn’t ever said you have to use their specialized tools for repair. Laws were passed requiring Apple to make their specialized tools, and the instructions to use them, available to consumers… so they did. And now the same people are criticizing them for doing exactly what was asked. When and if they make available cheap tools to perform battery repairs at home, the same cast of characters will come out of the woodwork saying that the Apple Monopoly is unfairly targeting iFixit’s low-cost self-service repair business. It seems like the HN audience feels ripped off by the $500 they paid for Mac Pro wheels, and plan to get their money’s worth by installing them on the goal posts instead.
      - tpmoney 2y ago
        You don't have to rent the tools from Apple. Apple will happily sell you just the battery and rent or sell as many or as few of the tools as you like. If you want to use the tools the professionals are going to use, you have that option. If you want to "shade tree mechanic" it, you're welcome to buy just the parts and follow their teardown process with your own tools, or follow someone like iFixit's teardown process with your tools and Apple's battery. And there's nothing wrong with doing it with "non-professional" tools. DIY car enthusiasts have been working with make shift alternatives to professional multi thousand dollar tools forever. Surely the DIY tech enthusiast isn't above the equivalent of tensioning your alternator with a 2x4 right?
kgc 2y ago
The batteries are now designed to be replaced. See iFixit’s teardown of recent devices.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > designed to be replaced With which effort? > See iFixit’s teardown of recent devices Care to provide a link?
  - ASalazarMX 2y ago
    It's all rumors, iFixit hasn't released guides to the iphone 16 yet, not even a teardown AFAIK. Repair guides, disassembly, and troubleshooting information for the iPhone 16 Pro, released September 20th, 2024. https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone_16 https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone_16
- bluescrn 2y ago
  I did swap an iPhone 8 battery not so long ago, really just to see how bad it was and whether I'd risk it on a newer device (which I didn't do in the end, after reading about 'non genuine battery' warnings on newer devices) And while that replacement was a success, it was a ridiculous amount of effort for a battery change, involving special tools, heat, an unreasonable amount of disassembly, scraping adhesive off, the 'stretch to release' battery adhesive being utterly useless, so having to risk applying force to a potentially fiery battery, and so on. Yes, iFixit are doing great work, and it's certainly possibly for a hobbyist-level 'tinkerer' to successfully change the battery. But it shouldn't be close to that difficult. I remember it being a fairly trivial job in the iPhone 5 era.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    More modern iPhones (14 onward and 15pro onward) are a lot easier to replace the battery. No need to remove the screen anymore, it can all be done from the back side. Apparently the pull tabs for the batteries are a lot better, as well. Still requires heat, but I’m not sure I’d call a little heat and some pry tools particularly “special” tools. It’s a compromise being made to achieve better rigidity and waterproofing. Seems like a reasonable trade off, honestly, for something that needs to be changed maybe every few years.
tpmoney 2y ago
>But they want to sell entire $1000+ phone upgrades, not replacement batteries. A comment like this is on every iPhone story and once again I have to ask, who the heck is willing to keep their phone if they can buy a $30 replacement battery on Amazon, but also would rather pay $1000+ for a replacement phone instead of buying a $120 battery replacement from Apple or less at any number of 3rd party mall vendors? And how many of these people are there that the income they generate from buying a new phone every 2 years that they could have otherwise replaced the battery in if only there were $30 amazon replacements is enough for Apple to be purposefully with no other reason assembling the phones the way they do?
- fsflover 2y ago
  > who the heck is willing to keep their phone if they can buy a $30 replacement battery on Amazon How about reusing an iPhone by someone else?
  - tpmoney 2y ago
    Ok, so who the heck is willing to re-use someone else's phone and would do so if they could replace it with a $30 part from Amazon, but because they need to take it to Apple or some other retailer and pay up to $120 to have it replaced for them, would rather drop $1k on a new phone?
    - wolpoli 2y ago
      At some point in the depreciation curve of the iPhone, it will not make sense for certain types of users (students?) to pay $120 for Apple to replace the battery, since $30 battery is not available, and instead would make more sense to buy a newer used iPhone. The price sensitive user themselves would not drop $1k on a new phone, but someone else in the upgrade treadmill will.
      - brailsafe 2y ago
        I really doubt any significant number of people would be buying $1k phones repeatedly if the cost wasn't amortized like they are. People don't feel like they're preserving a luxury item that costs that much, they feel like they're preserving something for the price of $120 that costs 1000/24 or whatever. When I go and actually spend $600 straight up for my non-iPhone (more than I'd prefer for the value it offers me) it hurts, and I'm going to do what I can within reason to keep it running.
dan-robertson 2y ago
Doesn’t the vibrant market in second-hand iPhones suggest that they tend to not become e-waste particularly quickly? The phones tend to get software for much longer than most. One can pay for a battery replacement, or sell/trade-in a device. Selling may lead to the battery being replaced by someone more willing to do it, or to other refurbishment.
- soulofmischief 2y ago
  This phenomenon is predicated upon a hierarchical economic class system, which it also reinforces. Therefore it is not a morally sustainable system, and is just another case of greenwashing.
  - pxeger1 2y ago
    I agree it’s not moral but it seems like it’s been pretty sustainable so far. As in, we’ve had a hierarchical class system for millennia and it doesn’t look to be going anywhere that soon. So I don’t think it’s fair to say that that(‘s what) makes it greenwashing.
  - dan-robertson 2y ago
    Are you saying it would be better if there weren’t a second-hand market? I’m not sure I really understand why that would be better. Maybe there’s a story one could tell for how someone’s situation would be better in such a world?
    - soulofmischief 2y ago
      I'm just saying that Apple doesn't get to point to a second-hand market to greenwash their products. I do agree that their phones potentially enjoy a longer average lifespan than the average Android, especially with extended security updates.
      - dan-robertson 2y ago
        I think I’m more confused by the claim that my statement above is ‘predicated on a hierarchical economic class system’. I don’t particularly want to argue about whether you or I live under a class system that is particularly hierarchical or economic, so let’s just suppose that we do. Why would my claim above (not sure whether you mean that vibrant 2nd hand market => less e-waste, or that selling a device where the battery hasn’t been replaced could lead to the buyer paying for a battery replacement and potentially reselling) not apply without such a hierarchical economic class system? Maybe I misunderstood what ‘predicated’ meant?
tourmalinetaco 2y ago
It frustrates me as well, especially when people brag about how “green” their devices are, despite the fact that they’ve went through 3 phones in almost as many years. If we wanted truly green devices we would create standardized parts that can easily be swapped out like we did for computers. The Fairphone is an excellent example of this, actually.
- fsflover 2y ago
  Another great example is Pinephone.
  - tpmoney 2y ago
    I'd wager out of all the phones in each category sold more Pinephones as a percentage of total sold have become e-waste faster than any model iPhone. Maybe the first couple generation iPhones might have had a faster turn around just on sheer YoY model improvements.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      Why is that? Unlike all iPhones, Pinephone will never stop receiving updates and can be used as a full desktop with mainline Linux, even if the cellular network has problems.
      - tpmoney 2y ago
        Because I'd also bet the vast majority of Pinephones sold have been sold as secondary phones to hobbyists and tinkers. And I suspect a good chunk of those have gone into drawer or are otherwise collecting dust unused after the initial cool factor wore off. Don't get me wrong, I like what pine64 does, and they're great to have around overall, but I also strongly doubt the long term viability of their phones both as a primary phone for daily use and in terms of a secondary market.
        xethos 2y ago
exe34 2y ago
they eu should offer them a choice: replace batteries past a limit for free, or offer the sort of phone where you can replace the battery by removing a few screws.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > replace batteries past a limit for free, or offer the sort of phone where you can replace the battery by removing a few screws Given the number that will get ruined from water exposure, it might make them money!
  - asadotzler 2y ago
    Samsung has proved you wrong for years.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Samsung has proved you wrong for years In comparison with Samsung phones, “Apple’s iPhones on average have an additional year of use even though the two brands are comparable in quality and technological innovation” [1]. [1] https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/when-it-comes-to-smartphone-lifespan-brand-name-matters-more-than-hardware https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/when-it-comes-to-s...
  - exe34 2y ago
    that's a very surprising statement. I've owned waterproof phones with screws, the only reason I had to stop using them was that the manufacturers violated GPL and did not release the drivers/kernel source. I've regularly washed mud off them without any issues. there is such a thing as a waterproof rubber ring.
illiac786 2y ago
I have to agree with the other comments here. 120$ vs. 1000$+ for a new phone, I don’t see how it can compare. I still agree it’s overpriced though.

Schiendelman 2y ago

What kind of battery are you imagining doesn't eventually degrade?

kelnos 2y ago
I think the point was the difficulty and expense of replacement, not that the battery degrades.
fsflover 2y ago
The OP didn't imagine non-degradable batteries, just easily replaceable ones.
bluescrn 2y ago
The point is that the battery is a consumable part. It should be easy to replace. Not everyone lives near an Apple Store, and phones are so essential to people that they're not likely to be prepared to mail their phone off for service.
- tpmoney 2y ago
  > Not everyone lives near an Apple Store Sure but how many people: 1) don't live near an Apple Store 2) don't live near any AASP (like Best Buy) 3) don't live near any one of the many 3rd party repair shops that do these replacement daily 4) don't have the mechanical and technical skills do do the replacement themselves by ordering the parts (and possibly renting tools) from Apple 5) and also have $1k+ to be spending on a new iPhone every time the battery degrades too much
  - inferiorhuman 2y ago
    Don't forget: 6) and are also unwilling to send their phone to Apple for repair
  - bluescrn 2y ago
    > 4) don't have the mechanical and technical skills do do the replacement themselves by ordering the parts (and possibly renting tools) from Apple There's several YouTube videos explaining how ridiculous this process is (renting the 'proper tools' from Apple). It's another attempt by Apple to justify repair-resistant devices by claiming it requires massive cases of specialised tools to do even the most basic repairs. Which maybe it does, but only because the devices aren't designed to be repaired...
    - burnerthrow008 2y ago
      Apple hasn’t ever said you have to use their specialized tools for repair. Laws were passed requiring Apple to make their specialized tools, and the instructions to use them, available to consumers… so they did. And now the same people are criticizing them for doing exactly what was asked. When and if they make available cheap tools to perform battery repairs at home, the same cast of characters will come out of the woodwork saying that the Apple Monopoly is unfairly targeting iFixit’s low-cost self-service repair business. It seems like the HN audience feels ripped off by the $500 they paid for Mac Pro wheels, and plan to get their money’s worth by installing them on the goal posts instead.
    - tpmoney 2y ago
      You don't have to rent the tools from Apple. Apple will happily sell you just the battery and rent or sell as many or as few of the tools as you like. If you want to use the tools the professionals are going to use, you have that option. If you want to "shade tree mechanic" it, you're welcome to buy just the parts and follow their teardown process with your own tools, or follow someone like iFixit's teardown process with your tools and Apple's battery. And there's nothing wrong with doing it with "non-professional" tools. DIY car enthusiasts have been working with make shift alternatives to professional multi thousand dollar tools forever. Surely the DIY tech enthusiast isn't above the equivalent of tensioning your alternator with a 2x4 right?

kgc 2y ago

The batteries are now designed to be replaced. See iFixit’s teardown of recent devices.

fsflover 2y ago
> designed to be replaced With which effort? > See iFixit’s teardown of recent devices Care to provide a link?
- ASalazarMX 2y ago
  It's all rumors, iFixit hasn't released guides to the iphone 16 yet, not even a teardown AFAIK. Repair guides, disassembly, and troubleshooting information for the iPhone 16 Pro, released September 20th, 2024. https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone_16 https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone_16
bluescrn 2y ago
I did swap an iPhone 8 battery not so long ago, really just to see how bad it was and whether I'd risk it on a newer device (which I didn't do in the end, after reading about 'non genuine battery' warnings on newer devices) And while that replacement was a success, it was a ridiculous amount of effort for a battery change, involving special tools, heat, an unreasonable amount of disassembly, scraping adhesive off, the 'stretch to release' battery adhesive being utterly useless, so having to risk applying force to a potentially fiery battery, and so on. Yes, iFixit are doing great work, and it's certainly possibly for a hobbyist-level 'tinkerer' to successfully change the battery. But it shouldn't be close to that difficult. I remember it being a fairly trivial job in the iPhone 5 era.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  More modern iPhones (14 onward and 15pro onward) are a lot easier to replace the battery. No need to remove the screen anymore, it can all be done from the back side. Apparently the pull tabs for the batteries are a lot better, as well. Still requires heat, but I’m not sure I’d call a little heat and some pry tools particularly “special” tools. It’s a compromise being made to achieve better rigidity and waterproofing. Seems like a reasonable trade off, honestly, for something that needs to be changed maybe every few years.

tpmoney 2y ago

>But they want to sell entire $1000+ phone upgrades, not replacement batteries. A comment like this is on every iPhone story and once again I have to ask, who the heck is willing to keep their phone if they can buy a $30 replacement battery on Amazon, but also would rather pay $1000+ for a replacement phone instead of buying a $120 battery replacement from Apple or less at any number of 3rd party mall vendors? And how many of these people are there that the income they generate from buying a new phone every 2 years that they could have otherwise replaced the battery in if only there were $30 amazon replacements is enough for Apple to be purposefully with no other reason assembling the phones the way they do?

fsflover 2y ago
> who the heck is willing to keep their phone if they can buy a $30 replacement battery on Amazon How about reusing an iPhone by someone else?
- tpmoney 2y ago
  Ok, so who the heck is willing to re-use someone else's phone and would do so if they could replace it with a $30 part from Amazon, but because they need to take it to Apple or some other retailer and pay up to $120 to have it replaced for them, would rather drop $1k on a new phone?
  - wolpoli 2y ago
    At some point in the depreciation curve of the iPhone, it will not make sense for certain types of users (students?) to pay $120 for Apple to replace the battery, since $30 battery is not available, and instead would make more sense to buy a newer used iPhone. The price sensitive user themselves would not drop $1k on a new phone, but someone else in the upgrade treadmill will.
    - brailsafe 2y ago
      I really doubt any significant number of people would be buying $1k phones repeatedly if the cost wasn't amortized like they are. People don't feel like they're preserving a luxury item that costs that much, they feel like they're preserving something for the price of $120 that costs 1000/24 or whatever. When I go and actually spend $600 straight up for my non-iPhone (more than I'd prefer for the value it offers me) it hurts, and I'm going to do what I can within reason to keep it running.

dan-robertson 2y ago

Doesn’t the vibrant market in second-hand iPhones suggest that they tend to not become e-waste particularly quickly? The phones tend to get software for much longer than most. One can pay for a battery replacement, or sell/trade-in a device. Selling may lead to the battery being replaced by someone more willing to do it, or to other refurbishment.

soulofmischief 2y ago
This phenomenon is predicated upon a hierarchical economic class system, which it also reinforces. Therefore it is not a morally sustainable system, and is just another case of greenwashing.
- pxeger1 2y ago
  I agree it’s not moral but it seems like it’s been pretty sustainable so far. As in, we’ve had a hierarchical class system for millennia and it doesn’t look to be going anywhere that soon. So I don’t think it’s fair to say that that(‘s what) makes it greenwashing.
- dan-robertson 2y ago
  Are you saying it would be better if there weren’t a second-hand market? I’m not sure I really understand why that would be better. Maybe there’s a story one could tell for how someone’s situation would be better in such a world?
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    I'm just saying that Apple doesn't get to point to a second-hand market to greenwash their products. I do agree that their phones potentially enjoy a longer average lifespan than the average Android, especially with extended security updates.
    - dan-robertson 2y ago
      I think I’m more confused by the claim that my statement above is ‘predicated on a hierarchical economic class system’. I don’t particularly want to argue about whether you or I live under a class system that is particularly hierarchical or economic, so let’s just suppose that we do. Why would my claim above (not sure whether you mean that vibrant 2nd hand market => less e-waste, or that selling a device where the battery hasn’t been replaced could lead to the buyer paying for a battery replacement and potentially reselling) not apply without such a hierarchical economic class system? Maybe I misunderstood what ‘predicated’ meant?

tourmalinetaco 2y ago

It frustrates me as well, especially when people brag about how “green” their devices are, despite the fact that they’ve went through 3 phones in almost as many years. If we wanted truly green devices we would create standardized parts that can easily be swapped out like we did for computers. The Fairphone is an excellent example of this, actually.

fsflover 2y ago
Another great example is Pinephone.
- tpmoney 2y ago
  I'd wager out of all the phones in each category sold more Pinephones as a percentage of total sold have become e-waste faster than any model iPhone. Maybe the first couple generation iPhones might have had a faster turn around just on sheer YoY model improvements.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    Why is that? Unlike all iPhones, Pinephone will never stop receiving updates and can be used as a full desktop with mainline Linux, even if the cellular network has problems.
    - tpmoney 2y ago
      Because I'd also bet the vast majority of Pinephones sold have been sold as secondary phones to hobbyists and tinkers. And I suspect a good chunk of those have gone into drawer or are otherwise collecting dust unused after the initial cool factor wore off. Don't get me wrong, I like what pine64 does, and they're great to have around overall, but I also strongly doubt the long term viability of their phones both as a primary phone for daily use and in terms of a secondary market.
      - xethos 2y ago

exe34 2y ago

they eu should offer them a choice: replace batteries past a limit for free, or offer the sort of phone where you can replace the battery by removing a few screws.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> replace batteries past a limit for free, or offer the sort of phone where you can replace the battery by removing a few screws Given the number that will get ruined from water exposure, it might make them money!
- asadotzler 2y ago
  Samsung has proved you wrong for years.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Samsung has proved you wrong for years In comparison with Samsung phones, “Apple’s iPhones on average have an additional year of use even though the two brands are comparable in quality and technological innovation” [1]. [1] https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/when-it-comes-to-smartphone-lifespan-brand-name-matters-more-than-hardware https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/when-it-comes-to-s...
- exe34 2y ago
  that's a very surprising statement. I've owned waterproof phones with screws, the only reason I had to stop using them was that the manufacturers violated GPL and did not release the drivers/kernel source. I've regularly washed mud off them without any issues. there is such a thing as a waterproof rubber ring.

illiac786 2y ago

I have to agree with the other comments here. 120$ vs. 1000$+ for a new phone, I don’t see how it can compare. I still agree it’s overpriced though.