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The most charitable interpretation of your statement is that it's a straw man argument. Who said anything about "unfettered illegal immigration"? Even that's an

by jmyeet 2y ago

The most charitable interpretation of your statement is that it's a straw man argument. Who said anything about "unfettered illegal immigration"? Even that's an objetively false characterization. Take the Haitian migrants in Ohio that are currently the victims of intentional blood libel. As an aside, identifying, villifying and demonizing an out-group like this, particularly to intentionally incite violence against them, is a key aspect of fascism. The objective falsehood here is that they're "illegal immigrants". They're not. They're Temporary Protected Status ("TPS") holders. It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. Every aspect of far-right anti-immigrant messaging is verifiably and objectively false. The latest lie is "they're eating the cats" [1] but there are so many more. The "migrant crime" hysteria is blood libel [2]. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/15/jd-vance-create-stories-migrants-eating-pets/75236975007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/... [2]: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...

djohnston 2y ago
> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. Where? In the first available country of safe refuge because you're fleeing political persecution or war? Yeah, I'd say that's 100% legal and moral. That's how you get from Syria to Turkiye. Is it legal and moral to then pass through 5 or 6 countries on your way to the USA or Sweden and request "asylum" because you want to find safe refuge in the country that has the best economic opporunity (or benefits)? How about buying a plane ticket from MENA to Mexico and then claiming asylum at the US border? Certainly the Mexican gov't isn't beholden to whatever dictator you were escaping in the Middle East. Could it be you're actually just abusing the asylum system to improve your economic outlook? Mayyybe that abuse is legal, but if you want to say it's moral you'll have to answer to the millions of people who pay money, fill out the forms, and immigrate to the US legally in search of the same opportunities. My take on it would be that cutting the line isn't moral, but maybe your values differ.
- archagon 2y ago
  Easy to wag fingers when you’ve never remotely been in this situation before.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    Well I won’t be in that situation in the foreseeable future, and I’d rather make my life better at the polls than altruistically throw a bone to strangers
  - Aleksdev 2y ago
    I’m a legal immigrant and I had to wait in line like everyone else. How is that fair to people like me when someone cuts in line? I’m not exactly from a “paradise country” myself so I understand these people very well so please don’t use that “you don’t know their situation” talking point with me. We all feel for them but we need to be practical. Rules are rules and they must be followed. That’s how societies function.
    - archagon 2y ago
      I’m a legal immigrant too. But I don’t take issue with people escaping horrible circumstances and making a better life in my country. Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.”
      - Aleksdev 2y ago
        We can agree to disagree. The decision is ultimately up to the country.
      - ywvcbk 2y ago
        > Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.” How? Them being allowed to stay will significantly reduce the chances of those who play by the rules and follow the standard process. Also you’re implicitly supporting a sort of “hunger games” and think that it’s perfectly acceptable to allow immigrants to risk their lives in the Mediterranean/English Channel/Sahara etc. for a chance to get in. Of course it’s not your personal fault and in any case it doesn’t matter as long as you don’t think about it but thousands of people are dying because ignoring the rules became an option.
djohnston 2y ago
Separately, > And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. A gradient or spectrum always has a centre. It's less a myth and more of a mathematical property for this sort of object. Your inability to see this centre as the centre is just you broadcasting that you're a political extremist. If you stand insanely far enough to the left I'm sure everyone looks like a Christian fundamentalist. Similarly if you stand far enough to the right everyone looks like a cat-eating illegal immigrant. It must be tough to live like this but I don't think you saying "Everyone else is conservative" bolsters your credibility the way you think it does.
throwawayffffas 2y ago
> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. If you're persecuted or fleeing conflict. Its not particularly moral to lie about your origin or persecution though. It's a fact that the services handling asylum applications are overwhelmed and that many people try to take advantage of that.
CRConrad 2y ago
[flagged]

by jmyeet 2y ago

djohnston 2y ago

> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. Where? In the first available country of safe refuge because you're fleeing political persecution or war? Yeah, I'd say that's 100% legal and moral. That's how you get from Syria to Turkiye. Is it legal and moral to then pass through 5 or 6 countries on your way to the USA or Sweden and request "asylum" because you want to find safe refuge in the country that has the best economic opporunity (or benefits)? How about buying a plane ticket from MENA to Mexico and then claiming asylum at the US border? Certainly the Mexican gov't isn't beholden to whatever dictator you were escaping in the Middle East. Could it be you're actually just abusing the asylum system to improve your economic outlook? Mayyybe that abuse is legal, but if you want to say it's moral you'll have to answer to the millions of people who pay money, fill out the forms, and immigrate to the US legally in search of the same opportunities. My take on it would be that cutting the line isn't moral, but maybe your values differ.

archagon 2y ago
Easy to wag fingers when you’ve never remotely been in this situation before.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rangestransform 2y ago
  Well I won’t be in that situation in the foreseeable future, and I’d rather make my life better at the polls than altruistically throw a bone to strangers
- Aleksdev 2y ago
  I’m a legal immigrant and I had to wait in line like everyone else. How is that fair to people like me when someone cuts in line? I’m not exactly from a “paradise country” myself so I understand these people very well so please don’t use that “you don’t know their situation” talking point with me. We all feel for them but we need to be practical. Rules are rules and they must be followed. That’s how societies function.
  - archagon 2y ago
    I’m a legal immigrant too. But I don’t take issue with people escaping horrible circumstances and making a better life in my country. Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.”
    - Aleksdev 2y ago
      We can agree to disagree. The decision is ultimately up to the country.
    - ywvcbk 2y ago
      > Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.” How? Them being allowed to stay will significantly reduce the chances of those who play by the rules and follow the standard process. Also you’re implicitly supporting a sort of “hunger games” and think that it’s perfectly acceptable to allow immigrants to risk their lives in the Mediterranean/English Channel/Sahara etc. for a chance to get in. Of course it’s not your personal fault and in any case it doesn’t matter as long as you don’t think about it but thousands of people are dying because ignoring the rules became an option.

djohnston 2y ago

Separately, > And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. A gradient or spectrum always has a centre. It's less a myth and more of a mathematical property for this sort of object. Your inability to see this centre as the centre is just you broadcasting that you're a political extremist. If you stand insanely far enough to the left I'm sure everyone looks like a Christian fundamentalist. Similarly if you stand far enough to the right everyone looks like a cat-eating illegal immigrant. It must be tough to live like this but I don't think you saying "Everyone else is conservative" bolsters your credibility the way you think it does.

throwawayffffas 2y ago

> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. If you're persecuted or fleeing conflict. Its not particularly moral to lie about your origin or persecution though. It's a fact that the services handling asylum applications are overwhelmed and that many people try to take advantage of that.

CRConrad 2y ago

[flagged]