8 ms·

The narrative of "If you don't like unfettered illegal immigration you're a Nazi" has really lost its stopping power. No one in the centre believes that anymore

The narrative of "If you don't like unfettered illegal immigration you're a Nazi" has really lost its stopping power. No one in the centre believes that anymore and most mainstream political parties see the problem quite clearly. What you decry as the rise of fascism is really just the decline in persuasiveness of this tired rhetoric.

jmyeet 2y ago
The most charitable interpretation of your statement is that it's a straw man argument. Who said anything about "unfettered illegal immigration"? Even that's an objetively false characterization. Take the Haitian migrants in Ohio that are currently the victims of intentional blood libel. As an aside, identifying, villifying and demonizing an out-group like this, particularly to intentionally incite violence against them, is a key aspect of fascism. The objective falsehood here is that they're "illegal immigrants". They're not. They're Temporary Protected Status ("TPS") holders. It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. Every aspect of far-right anti-immigrant messaging is verifiably and objectively false. The latest lie is "they're eating the cats" [1] but there are so many more. The "migrant crime" hysteria is blood libel [2]. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/15/jd-vance-create-stories-migrants-eating-pets/75236975007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/... [2]: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...
- djohnston 2y ago
  > It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. Where? In the first available country of safe refuge because you're fleeing political persecution or war? Yeah, I'd say that's 100% legal and moral. That's how you get from Syria to Turkiye. Is it legal and moral to then pass through 5 or 6 countries on your way to the USA or Sweden and request "asylum" because you want to find safe refuge in the country that has the best economic opporunity (or benefits)? How about buying a plane ticket from MENA to Mexico and then claiming asylum at the US border? Certainly the Mexican gov't isn't beholden to whatever dictator you were escaping in the Middle East. Could it be you're actually just abusing the asylum system to improve your economic outlook? Mayyybe that abuse is legal, but if you want to say it's moral you'll have to answer to the millions of people who pay money, fill out the forms, and immigrate to the US legally in search of the same opportunities. My take on it would be that cutting the line isn't moral, but maybe your values differ.
  - archagon 2y ago
    Easy to wag fingers when you’ve never remotely been in this situation before.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - rangestransform 2y ago
      Well I won’t be in that situation in the foreseeable future, and I’d rather make my life better at the polls than altruistically throw a bone to strangers
    - Aleksdev 2y ago
      I’m a legal immigrant and I had to wait in line like everyone else. How is that fair to people like me when someone cuts in line? I’m not exactly from a “paradise country” myself so I understand these people very well so please don’t use that “you don’t know their situation” talking point with me. We all feel for them but we need to be practical. Rules are rules and they must be followed. That’s how societies function.
      - archagon 2y ago
        I’m a legal immigrant too. But I don’t take issue with people escaping horrible circumstances and making a better life in my country. Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.”
        Aleksdev 2y ago
        We can agree to disagree. The decision is ultimately up to the country.
        ywvcbk 2y ago
        > Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.” How? Them being allowed to stay will significantly reduce the chances of those who play by the rules and follow the standard process. Also you’re implicitly supporting a sort of “hunger games” and think that it’s perfectly acceptable to allow immigrants to risk their lives in the Mediterranean/English Channel/Sahara etc. for a chance to get in. Of course it’s not your personal fault and in any case it doesn’t matter as long as you don’t think about it but thousands of people are dying because ignoring the rules became an option.
- djohnston 2y ago
  Separately, > And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. A gradient or spectrum always has a centre. It's less a myth and more of a mathematical property for this sort of object. Your inability to see this centre as the centre is just you broadcasting that you're a political extremist. If you stand insanely far enough to the left I'm sure everyone looks like a Christian fundamentalist. Similarly if you stand far enough to the right everyone looks like a cat-eating illegal immigrant. It must be tough to live like this but I don't think you saying "Everyone else is conservative" bolsters your credibility the way you think it does.
- throwawayffffas 2y ago
  > It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. If you're persecuted or fleeing conflict. Its not particularly moral to lie about your origin or persecution though. It's a fact that the services handling asylum applications are overwhelmed and that many people try to take advantage of that.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  [flagged]
thomassmith65 2y ago
[flagged]
- thomassmith65 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy Although FdI rejects the "neo-fascist" label, it has been applied due to the party's history dating back to the Italian Social Movement, its far-right ties, its appeal to neo-fascist themes on social media like Facebook, and some party leaders' nostalgia for Italian fascism, including Roman salutes. Some party members have celebrated Benito Mussolini, with fascist memorabilia in some local offices. Some members of the Mussolini family have run for FdI, such as Rachele Mussolini, granddaughter of Mussolini, for the City Council of Rome, and Caio Giulio Cesare Mussolini, great-grandson of Mussolini, for the 2019 European Parliament election. Very cool /s ────────────────────────────────────────── https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats According to Expo, it is generally agreed that the Sweden Democrats have never been a neo-Nazi party, although some of the SD's early members and founders had previously been connected with Swedish fascist and white nationalist groups. A study by Expo documented that around nine of the original 30 people who played a role in founding the SD had direct associations to known Nordic fascist organisations such as the New Swedish Movement and the neo-Nazi Nordiska rikspartiet, although most of these members were no longer active within the party by the mid-1990s. The party's first auditor, Gustaf Ekström, was a Waffen-SS veteran and had been a member of the national socialist party Svensk Socialistisk Samling in the 1940s. The SD's first chairman Anders Klarström and deputy board members and party co-founders Fritz Håkansson and Sven Davidson had all been active in the Nordic Realm Party. Klarström later elaborated he had briefly been part of the NRP as a teenager before distancing himself from it by the time he became SD leader. The SD's logo from the 1990s until 2006 was a version of the torch used by the British National Front. Political historian Duncan McDonnell has argued that it is disputed as to whether the SD was explicitly founded to be a neo-fascist movement, but it was widely known to publicly align itself with extreme fringe politics and faced criticism in the late 1980s and early 1990s for attracting skinhead gangs to its public events. 'Only' 30% of the original SD were fascists or neo-Nazis. My bad /s ────────────────────────────────────────── "What you decry as the rise of fascism is really just the decline in persuasiveness of this tired rhetoric." Sigh.

jmyeet 2y ago

The most charitable interpretation of your statement is that it's a straw man argument. Who said anything about "unfettered illegal immigration"? Even that's an objetively false characterization. Take the Haitian migrants in Ohio that are currently the victims of intentional blood libel. As an aside, identifying, villifying and demonizing an out-group like this, particularly to intentionally incite violence against them, is a key aspect of fascism. The objective falsehood here is that they're "illegal immigrants". They're not. They're Temporary Protected Status ("TPS") holders. It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. Every aspect of far-right anti-immigrant messaging is verifiably and objectively false. The latest lie is "they're eating the cats" [1] but there are so many more. The "migrant crime" hysteria is blood libel [2]. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/15/jd-vance-create-stories-migrants-eating-pets/75236975007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/... [2]: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...

djohnston 2y ago
> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. Where? In the first available country of safe refuge because you're fleeing political persecution or war? Yeah, I'd say that's 100% legal and moral. That's how you get from Syria to Turkiye. Is it legal and moral to then pass through 5 or 6 countries on your way to the USA or Sweden and request "asylum" because you want to find safe refuge in the country that has the best economic opporunity (or benefits)? How about buying a plane ticket from MENA to Mexico and then claiming asylum at the US border? Certainly the Mexican gov't isn't beholden to whatever dictator you were escaping in the Middle East. Could it be you're actually just abusing the asylum system to improve your economic outlook? Mayyybe that abuse is legal, but if you want to say it's moral you'll have to answer to the millions of people who pay money, fill out the forms, and immigrate to the US legally in search of the same opportunities. My take on it would be that cutting the line isn't moral, but maybe your values differ.
- archagon 2y ago
  Easy to wag fingers when you’ve never remotely been in this situation before.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    Well I won’t be in that situation in the foreseeable future, and I’d rather make my life better at the polls than altruistically throw a bone to strangers
  - Aleksdev 2y ago
    I’m a legal immigrant and I had to wait in line like everyone else. How is that fair to people like me when someone cuts in line? I’m not exactly from a “paradise country” myself so I understand these people very well so please don’t use that “you don’t know their situation” talking point with me. We all feel for them but we need to be practical. Rules are rules and they must be followed. That’s how societies function.
    - archagon 2y ago
      I’m a legal immigrant too. But I don’t take issue with people escaping horrible circumstances and making a better life in my country. Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.”
      - Aleksdev 2y ago
        We can agree to disagree. The decision is ultimately up to the country.
      - ywvcbk 2y ago
        > Nor do I see it as “cutting in line.” How? Them being allowed to stay will significantly reduce the chances of those who play by the rules and follow the standard process. Also you’re implicitly supporting a sort of “hunger games” and think that it’s perfectly acceptable to allow immigrants to risk their lives in the Mediterranean/English Channel/Sahara etc. for a chance to get in. Of course it’s not your personal fault and in any case it doesn’t matter as long as you don’t think about it but thousands of people are dying because ignoring the rules became an option.
djohnston 2y ago
Separately, > And then we proceed to the myth of "the center", much like the myth of the "swing voter". What the US has politically is a choice between the far-right and the center-right who have completely capitulated to far-right messaging on immigration. A gradient or spectrum always has a centre. It's less a myth and more of a mathematical property for this sort of object. Your inability to see this centre as the centre is just you broadcasting that you're a political extremist. If you stand insanely far enough to the left I'm sure everyone looks like a Christian fundamentalist. Similarly if you stand far enough to the right everyone looks like a cat-eating illegal immigrant. It must be tough to live like this but I don't think you saying "Everyone else is conservative" bolsters your credibility the way you think it does.
throwawayffffas 2y ago
> It is 100% legal and moral to seek asylum. If you're persecuted or fleeing conflict. Its not particularly moral to lie about your origin or persecution though. It's a fact that the services handling asylum applications are overwhelmed and that many people try to take advantage of that.
CRConrad 2y ago
[flagged]

thomassmith65 2y ago

[flagged]

thomassmith65 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Italy Although FdI rejects the "neo-fascist" label, it has been applied due to the party's history dating back to the Italian Social Movement, its far-right ties, its appeal to neo-fascist themes on social media like Facebook, and some party leaders' nostalgia for Italian fascism, including Roman salutes. Some party members have celebrated Benito Mussolini, with fascist memorabilia in some local offices. Some members of the Mussolini family have run for FdI, such as Rachele Mussolini, granddaughter of Mussolini, for the City Council of Rome, and Caio Giulio Cesare Mussolini, great-grandson of Mussolini, for the 2019 European Parliament election. Very cool /s ────────────────────────────────────────── https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats According to Expo, it is generally agreed that the Sweden Democrats have never been a neo-Nazi party, although some of the SD's early members and founders had previously been connected with Swedish fascist and white nationalist groups. A study by Expo documented that around nine of the original 30 people who played a role in founding the SD had direct associations to known Nordic fascist organisations such as the New Swedish Movement and the neo-Nazi Nordiska rikspartiet, although most of these members were no longer active within the party by the mid-1990s. The party's first auditor, Gustaf Ekström, was a Waffen-SS veteran and had been a member of the national socialist party Svensk Socialistisk Samling in the 1940s. The SD's first chairman Anders Klarström and deputy board members and party co-founders Fritz Håkansson and Sven Davidson had all been active in the Nordic Realm Party. Klarström later elaborated he had briefly been part of the NRP as a teenager before distancing himself from it by the time he became SD leader. The SD's logo from the 1990s until 2006 was a version of the torch used by the British National Front. Political historian Duncan McDonnell has argued that it is disputed as to whether the SD was explicitly founded to be a neo-fascist movement, but it was widely known to publicly align itself with extreme fringe politics and faced criticism in the late 1980s and early 1990s for attracting skinhead gangs to its public events. 'Only' 30% of the original SD were fascists or neo-Nazis. My bad /s ────────────────────────────────────────── "What you decry as the rise of fascism is really just the decline in persuasiveness of this tired rhetoric." Sigh.