4 ms·

Is there a difference between a refugee and a migrant? I'd suppose a migrant can take the money and go home and afford themself a better life, whereas for a ref

Is there a difference between a refugee and a migrant? I'd suppose a migrant can take the money and go home and afford themself a better life, whereas for a refugee it will take much more than economic resources. The title says it's going to be for migrants.

stbenjam 2y ago
All refugees are migrants but not all migrants are refugees.
ben_w 2y ago
I'm a migrant because I moved from the UK to Germany. I'm *not* a refugee because I'm not seeking "refuge" AKA sanctuary* — Brexit wasn't that bad. * at least that's how the words split in English, I don't know if the Swedish language divides up reality in the same way
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  By definition there’s a difference, but realistically most refugees are lying migrants, claiming refugee status when in fact they are not in real danger and just want the economic benefits.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    The economic benefits of… having a couple of months of mandatory unemployment while the asylum application is processed? Followed by the same stuff you'd have to do if you hadn't done that?
    - foogazi 2y ago
      The economic benefits of doing all of that under much better circumstances HN crowd should understand the value of positioning your self in a better scenario
      - ben_w 2y ago
        The asylum process doesn't give you a significantly better foundation than if you had applied for work before moving, it's just a delay that may also get you rejected. It's like getting free meals from your hospital by pretending to be ill. Och det förutsatt att du pratar svenska eller har ett yrke där du klarar dig utan. AI-översättning (så här) kommer inte att klippa det. (Sechs Jahre nach meiner Ankunft in Berlin, und meine Deutschkenntnisse bleibt nur 'okay')
        foogazi 2y ago
        To those already eligible for work visas sure - they are probably eligible for immigration to multiple countries For the others asylum is not only an option to escape persecution but also a much better economic outcome
    - throwawayffffas 2y ago
      The economic benefits of working illegally while the process drags on for a year or two.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        Exactly how much do employers willing to take people on without a tax ID (or a grasp or Swedish, in this case) actually pay? My suspicion is "as little as possible".
        throwawayffffas 2y ago
        As little as possible might be more than they could get elsewhere. Plus if you don't have a tax ID you don't pay taxes. Additionally they could be working in the gig economy. I swear I have never had a delivery from uber eats where the person doing the delivery was the same as the photo on the app. What's happening there is they are renting the account for the day. Don't get me wrong these people are being exploited, but they could be making more than if they were home.
        ben_w 2y ago
        > As little as possible might be more than they could get elsewhere. Plus if you don't have a tax ID you don't pay taxes. The Syrian civil war reduced their GDP per capita from ~11,000 in 2010 to ~530 USD/year in 2022: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=Syria+gdp+per+capita+2010%2C+2022 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=Syria+gdp+per+capita+20... Even if someone is trying to game the system from a better position such as fleeing Ukraine, they're going to face competition from people *that poor*, who are otherwise in the same position. Crucially, this is bellow the 24200 SEK (2.133,15 Euro) tax-free allowance where they wouldn't pay tax anyway. > Don't get me wrong these people are being exploited, but they could be making more than if they were home. Are you sure those people aren't trafficked, rather than in your country voluntarily? Such exploitation is also a problem, but I'd say a different one.
        CRConrad 2y ago
- klabb3 2y ago
  It’s the same. Flykting = refugee, invandrare = migrant. Or just migrant = migrant.
theptip 2y ago
Refugees typically apply for asylum (you can look up what this means under international treaties). The base claim is that their lives are at risk in their home country, for example due to religious persecution. Lots of grey area in the middle of course.
wkat4242 2y ago
The problem in Europe is that many migrants try the refugee process though they're not in danger. They often throw away their documents so it's really hard to figure out where they're really from and it costs the states lots of money. At the same time they're taking places of real refugees.
jfengel 2y ago
The article used both terms, more or less interchangeably. I'm not sure why they weren't more precise about it, but it implies that they really have refugees in mind rather than, say, expat Portuguese.
theshrike79 2y ago
Refugee is an exact definition by UNHCR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee Colloquially it's being used all over the place, but in legal contexts it's a very specific thing.
- amluto 2y ago
  If you scroll down that article, you’ll find multiple definitions.

stbenjam 2y ago

All refugees are migrants but not all migrants are refugees.

ben_w 2y ago

I'm a migrant because I moved from the UK to Germany. I'm *not* a refugee because I'm not seeking "refuge" AKA sanctuary* — Brexit wasn't that bad. * at least that's how the words split in English, I don't know if the Swedish language divides up reality in the same way

tourmalinetaco 2y ago
By definition there’s a difference, but realistically most refugees are lying migrants, claiming refugee status when in fact they are not in real danger and just want the economic benefits.
- ben_w 2y ago
  The economic benefits of… having a couple of months of mandatory unemployment while the asylum application is processed? Followed by the same stuff you'd have to do if you hadn't done that?
  - foogazi 2y ago
    The economic benefits of doing all of that under much better circumstances HN crowd should understand the value of positioning your self in a better scenario
    - ben_w 2y ago
      The asylum process doesn't give you a significantly better foundation than if you had applied for work before moving, it's just a delay that may also get you rejected. It's like getting free meals from your hospital by pretending to be ill. Och det förutsatt att du pratar svenska eller har ett yrke där du klarar dig utan. AI-översättning (så här) kommer inte att klippa det. (Sechs Jahre nach meiner Ankunft in Berlin, und meine Deutschkenntnisse bleibt nur 'okay')
      - foogazi 2y ago
        To those already eligible for work visas sure - they are probably eligible for immigration to multiple countries For the others asylum is not only an option to escape persecution but also a much better economic outcome
  - throwawayffffas 2y ago
    The economic benefits of working illegally while the process drags on for a year or two.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Exactly how much do employers willing to take people on without a tax ID (or a grasp or Swedish, in this case) actually pay? My suspicion is "as little as possible".
      - throwawayffffas 2y ago
        As little as possible might be more than they could get elsewhere. Plus if you don't have a tax ID you don't pay taxes. Additionally they could be working in the gig economy. I swear I have never had a delivery from uber eats where the person doing the delivery was the same as the photo on the app. What's happening there is they are renting the account for the day. Don't get me wrong these people are being exploited, but they could be making more than if they were home.
        ben_w 2y ago
        > As little as possible might be more than they could get elsewhere. Plus if you don't have a tax ID you don't pay taxes. The Syrian civil war reduced their GDP per capita from ~11,000 in 2010 to ~530 USD/year in 2022: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=Syria+gdp+per+capita+2010%2C+2022 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=Syria+gdp+per+capita+20... Even if someone is trying to game the system from a better position such as fleeing Ukraine, they're going to face competition from people *that poor*, who are otherwise in the same position. Crucially, this is bellow the 24200 SEK (2.133,15 Euro) tax-free allowance where they wouldn't pay tax anyway. > Don't get me wrong these people are being exploited, but they could be making more than if they were home. Are you sure those people aren't trafficked, rather than in your country voluntarily? Such exploitation is also a problem, but I'd say a different one.
        CRConrad 2y ago
klabb3 2y ago
It’s the same. Flykting = refugee, invandrare = migrant. Or just migrant = migrant.

theptip 2y ago

Refugees typically apply for asylum (you can look up what this means under international treaties). The base claim is that their lives are at risk in their home country, for example due to religious persecution. Lots of grey area in the middle of course.

wkat4242 2y ago

The problem in Europe is that many migrants try the refugee process though they're not in danger. They often throw away their documents so it's really hard to figure out where they're really from and it costs the states lots of money. At the same time they're taking places of real refugees.

jfengel 2y ago

The article used both terms, more or less interchangeably. I'm not sure why they weren't more precise about it, but it implies that they really have refugees in mind rather than, say, expat Portuguese.

theshrike79 2y ago

Refugee is an exact definition by UNHCR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee Colloquially it's being used all over the place, but in legal contexts it's a very specific thing.

amluto 2y ago
If you scroll down that article, you’ll find multiple definitions.