5 ms·

> Rangers spent 20 minutes removing it. Animals will eat the cheetos, mold will spread to the walls Where it will be consumed by the mold eating cave inhabitan

> Rangers spent 20 minutes removing it. Animals will eat the cheetos, mold will spread to the walls Where it will be consumed by the mold eating cave inhabitants. Do they really think that cave ecosystems weren't prepared for a deer carcass? They had received external supplies of nutrients for millions of years. Keeping caves clean is a good thing, but if people can't behave can be fined for it. In any case, regular cleaning teams should be included in the budget of the park as part of the management. Stop being cheap with nature. Except for the aluminum and plastic bag, easily removable, this is a storm in a teacup. Would be relevant only when prehistoric art is present.

llamaimperative 2y ago
Are you a caretaker of cave systems?
- afavour 2y ago
  Next best thing: a message board contributor.
- kylebenzle 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - afavour 2y ago
    IMO it’s sincere and valid. Experts at the national park service assert X, anonymous contributor asserts disagreement Y. It’s fair to ask what your qualification is when disagreeing with a named expert.
    - jMyles 2y ago
      HN is one of the few places on there internet where, more often than not, assessments and arguments are mostly integrated based on their merits, logic, and referenced sources, rather than the credentials of the author of the comment.
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        Oh then are we cave system caretakers, able to accurately assess the logic and technical merits of different approaches to cave management?
        jMyles 2y ago
        I'm interested to try, and to figure out where those limitations are, rather than to just shut down discussion for lack of proper credentials. I honestly don't know whether, for example, a deer carcass is a potentially destabilizing element for a cave of this nature, or how often such a thing occurs, but I think it's not an unreasonable approach to tease out the particulars.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        As you can tell from GP's response to my question, it was actually quite effective in pushing the conversation forward. It revealed GP's (alleged) confusion in separating the blogspam commentary in this article from the NPS's statement on ecosystem health.
        salesmanbob 2y ago
        I mean, maybe if you don't know something, you just don't have to comment at all. Not every discussion needs to be had, especially when every single commenter doesn't have the requisite background but still tries to debate specific technical merits anyway. This is how you get Uber inventing buses and then acting like it's a new thing. People on this website really overestimate their ability to be experts in things they have zero experience in, and it's kind of terrifying.
      - afavour 2y ago
        Sure. But the OP doesn’t really state any sources not does the argument have a ton of merit. It kinda reminds me of the legendary Onion article “This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No It Won’t”: https://theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-region-and-1819594296/ https://theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mi... Being a person of authority might help make up for the evidence being entirely lacking, hence requesting it.
  - matthewdgreen 2y ago
    Carlsbad Caverns visitor numbers fluctuate, but seem to be in the range of 500k yearly based on published data. To answer OP's question, I strongly doubt that this is one piece of litter, or that the rangers are publishing this article because of one singular Cheetos packet. HN rules say "assume good faith" and I don't feel like the OP is doing this (particularly in his response comment.) [1] https://www.nps.gov/cave/learn/news/interesting-facts-about-carlsbad-caverns.htm https://www.nps.gov/cave/learn/news/interesting-facts-about-...
    - pvaldes 2y ago
      If authorities say that some cave ecosystem is really fragile and could be damaged by litter, well this is a reasonable hypothesis. I'll buy it. The article sets the outcome with a terrifying "corn flour could have triggered chaos", but without providing links to research that will support this hypothesis. Meanwhile, I'm being required to provide links to a negative outcome research, or to flash a ridiculous license to think. Well, If you want the proof, is in the fact that this ecosystems still exist. Existed for millions of years. Despite the number of bones found on caves all around the planet, Or the fact that people makes cheese on caves since thousands of years, Or that the surface waters carrying bacteria, algae and viruses pass through caves... ... Despite this, nobody has seen a cave disappear after being filled with mold. Somehow, the surplus of mold disappears from this ecosystems. How? The empirical experience show us that ecosystems poor in nutrients are boosted locally when they receive an external supply of carcasses or organic garbage. As long as is a reasonable amount, the ecosystem can deal with it. This garbage just provided dinner for the cave crickets that are preyed by spiders later. The most probable outcome will be: "more endangered crickets and more unique spiders". The science of Ecology has studied the concept of stress on ecosystems thoroughly: Some stress increases biodiversity; too much is bad. You could say: "but people could be trowing too much garbage here!". Yep. But "could be happening" is not the same thing as "is happening". Show the numbers. In any case the real problem is not this. The real problem is that the same authorities talking about chaos in ecosystem, are allowing 500k f*ing people a year walking in that ecosystem. Didn't they said before that it is so, so fragile?. Maybe they are being hypocrites about this? The solution here seems very simple. If the cave ecosystem is in danger, stop tourism until it recovers. You can't have your cake and eat it.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  I don't need to be a caretaker of cave systems to notice the manipulation in this article. Lying for a good cause is still lying, and in the end destroys any credibility. Bullshit like for example saying that cave ecosystems could be destroyed because <huge improbable number> of trash has been discarded in the sum of <every> protected areas. Sorry but, how much of these areas do have cave ecosystems? A cheetos bag does not have the same impact in a prairie than in a cave. The article is leading the reader toward the assumption that caves are flooded with millions of tons of trash; but does not show any data to support that claim except that "the problem was solved in 20 minutes". If we don't have a real value, we should do research and find a real estimate. Extrapolating from things unrelated to achieve our desired emotional response (based in fake data) is dishonest towards the public. And eventually they will discover the trick and will stop caring.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    You're jumping from "this article is bad" to "the underlying event is 'a storm in a teacup'" I don't take issue with the argument that this article (which is clearly blogspam) is bad. I take issue with your assertion that this is a non-event despite NPS saying otherwise. Frankly I can't bring myself to believe that you're actually confused by the distinction between the blogspam and the NPS's statement, but I suppose it's possible.
    - pvaldes 2y ago
      If is so bad, just show me the research, or at least any proof showing that the ecosystem is collapsing. You know, as me, that the blogspam is the only part what the public will read. And then you have a lot of people with lots of silly and wrong ideas about how nature works.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        I'm happy to defer to the professional caretakers of caves to have collated the relevant research behind their opinions, which is why I asked whether you are one. You're not, so I think onus is on you if you'd like to provide evidence to the contrary of actual expert opinion.
dooglius 2y ago
Why would you expect that a deer carcass would not alter the ecosystem?
- dartos 2y ago
  Not irreparably
salesmanbob 2y ago
Have you considered reaching out to tell them they're wrong and to not waste their time? I'm sure as cave caretakers and scientists they're busy doing other things that you could also correct them on.
- valianteffort 2y ago
  The scientific community is rife with pretentious know-it-all types. The type that draw conclusions before something is conclusive. Better not to take them seriously. They recently built a cafe deep inside carlsbad caverns. If food was an issue, that seems a dumb idea.
rambojohnson 2y ago
do you also run a comic book store?

llamaimperative 2y ago

Are you a caretaker of cave systems?

afavour 2y ago
Next best thing: a message board contributor.
kylebenzle 2y ago
[flagged]
- afavour 2y ago
  IMO it’s sincere and valid. Experts at the national park service assert X, anonymous contributor asserts disagreement Y. It’s fair to ask what your qualification is when disagreeing with a named expert.
  - jMyles 2y ago
    HN is one of the few places on there internet where, more often than not, assessments and arguments are mostly integrated based on their merits, logic, and referenced sources, rather than the credentials of the author of the comment.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      Oh then are we cave system caretakers, able to accurately assess the logic and technical merits of different approaches to cave management?
      - jMyles 2y ago
        I'm interested to try, and to figure out where those limitations are, rather than to just shut down discussion for lack of proper credentials. I honestly don't know whether, for example, a deer carcass is a potentially destabilizing element for a cave of this nature, or how often such a thing occurs, but I think it's not an unreasonable approach to tease out the particulars.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        As you can tell from GP's response to my question, it was actually quite effective in pushing the conversation forward. It revealed GP's (alleged) confusion in separating the blogspam commentary in this article from the NPS's statement on ecosystem health.
        salesmanbob 2y ago
        I mean, maybe if you don't know something, you just don't have to comment at all. Not every discussion needs to be had, especially when every single commenter doesn't have the requisite background but still tries to debate specific technical merits anyway. This is how you get Uber inventing buses and then acting like it's a new thing. People on this website really overestimate their ability to be experts in things they have zero experience in, and it's kind of terrifying.
    - afavour 2y ago
      Sure. But the OP doesn’t really state any sources not does the argument have a ton of merit. It kinda reminds me of the legendary Onion article “This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No It Won’t”: https://theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-region-and-1819594296/ https://theonion.com/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mi... Being a person of authority might help make up for the evidence being entirely lacking, hence requesting it.
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  Carlsbad Caverns visitor numbers fluctuate, but seem to be in the range of 500k yearly based on published data. To answer OP's question, I strongly doubt that this is one piece of litter, or that the rangers are publishing this article because of one singular Cheetos packet. HN rules say "assume good faith" and I don't feel like the OP is doing this (particularly in his response comment.) [1] https://www.nps.gov/cave/learn/news/interesting-facts-about-carlsbad-caverns.htm https://www.nps.gov/cave/learn/news/interesting-facts-about-...
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    If authorities say that some cave ecosystem is really fragile and could be damaged by litter, well this is a reasonable hypothesis. I'll buy it. The article sets the outcome with a terrifying "corn flour could have triggered chaos", but without providing links to research that will support this hypothesis. Meanwhile, I'm being required to provide links to a negative outcome research, or to flash a ridiculous license to think. Well, If you want the proof, is in the fact that this ecosystems still exist. Existed for millions of years. Despite the number of bones found on caves all around the planet, Or the fact that people makes cheese on caves since thousands of years, Or that the surface waters carrying bacteria, algae and viruses pass through caves... ... Despite this, nobody has seen a cave disappear after being filled with mold. Somehow, the surplus of mold disappears from this ecosystems. How? The empirical experience show us that ecosystems poor in nutrients are boosted locally when they receive an external supply of carcasses or organic garbage. As long as is a reasonable amount, the ecosystem can deal with it. This garbage just provided dinner for the cave crickets that are preyed by spiders later. The most probable outcome will be: "more endangered crickets and more unique spiders". The science of Ecology has studied the concept of stress on ecosystems thoroughly: Some stress increases biodiversity; too much is bad. You could say: "but people could be trowing too much garbage here!". Yep. But "could be happening" is not the same thing as "is happening". Show the numbers. In any case the real problem is not this. The real problem is that the same authorities talking about chaos in ecosystem, are allowing 500k f*ing people a year walking in that ecosystem. Didn't they said before that it is so, so fragile?. Maybe they are being hypocrites about this? The solution here seems very simple. If the cave ecosystem is in danger, stop tourism until it recovers. You can't have your cake and eat it.
pvaldes 2y ago
I don't need to be a caretaker of cave systems to notice the manipulation in this article. Lying for a good cause is still lying, and in the end destroys any credibility. Bullshit like for example saying that cave ecosystems could be destroyed because <huge improbable number> of trash has been discarded in the sum of <every> protected areas. Sorry but, how much of these areas do have cave ecosystems? A cheetos bag does not have the same impact in a prairie than in a cave. The article is leading the reader toward the assumption that caves are flooded with millions of tons of trash; but does not show any data to support that claim except that "the problem was solved in 20 minutes". If we don't have a real value, we should do research and find a real estimate. Extrapolating from things unrelated to achieve our desired emotional response (based in fake data) is dishonest towards the public. And eventually they will discover the trick and will stop caring.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  You're jumping from "this article is bad" to "the underlying event is 'a storm in a teacup'" I don't take issue with the argument that this article (which is clearly blogspam) is bad. I take issue with your assertion that this is a non-event despite NPS saying otherwise. Frankly I can't bring myself to believe that you're actually confused by the distinction between the blogspam and the NPS's statement, but I suppose it's possible.
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    If is so bad, just show me the research, or at least any proof showing that the ecosystem is collapsing. You know, as me, that the blogspam is the only part what the public will read. And then you have a lot of people with lots of silly and wrong ideas about how nature works.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      I'm happy to defer to the professional caretakers of caves to have collated the relevant research behind their opinions, which is why I asked whether you are one. You're not, so I think onus is on you if you'd like to provide evidence to the contrary of actual expert opinion.

dooglius 2y ago

Why would you expect that a deer carcass would not alter the ecosystem?

dartos 2y ago
Not irreparably

salesmanbob 2y ago

Have you considered reaching out to tell them they're wrong and to not waste their time? I'm sure as cave caretakers and scientists they're busy doing other things that you could also correct them on.

valianteffort 2y ago
The scientific community is rife with pretentious know-it-all types. The type that draw conclusions before something is conclusive. Better not to take them seriously. They recently built a cafe deep inside carlsbad caverns. If food was an issue, that seems a dumb idea.

rambojohnson 2y ago

do you also run a comic book store?