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> At this point, such sentiments feel either willfully ignorant, or said in bad faith. I feel exactly the same, but in the opposite direction. As someone who’

by dartos 2y ago

> At this point, such sentiments feel either willfully ignorant, or said in bad faith. I feel exactly the same, but in the opposite direction. As someone who’s been programming for 17 years and working professionally for 10, I’m unable to get any huge productivity boosts from AI tools. They’re better than Google+stack overflow for asking random questions, but in a specific context and they’re good for repetitive, but not identical, syntax. That’s about where the gains end for me. Maybe at this point I’m just so fast about looking up documentation. Maybe the languages/problems I’m facing aren’t well represented in the training data, but I just don’t see this amazing advancement. I’d really love to see, live, someone programming who really gets these big productivity gains.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
Most gains are from using Copilot, do you use that?
- acedTrex 2y ago
  I have it, tried it for a while. I have it turned mostly off new except for rare boilerplate heavy cases. It kept generating annoyingly wrong code. Things with subtly wrong misleading names, missing edge cases, ignoring immediate same file context etc. I found that it slowed me down so i turned it off.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    Which language?
    - acedTrex 2y ago
      golang and python mainly. For rust it failed spectacularly. So bad that its not worth discussing lol
    - homebrewer 2y ago
      Same experience, but with TypeScript and Go. They gave me a 60-day trial (IIRC), I used it for two days, disabled it for the next 58 days, and after that removed it from the editor.
      - mewpmewp2 2y ago
        I get really good results with TypeScript and Python. Like it knows exactly what I want to do, I feel like I think exactly as Copilot does. Maybe I am the statistical average... Makes me wonder if people who don't like Copilot output will not like my natural output as well.
        dartos 2y ago
        Feel free not to share, I don’t want you to get dogpiled, but if you would humor me, Could you share any code on GitHub (or pastebin or whatever) that you wrote with the help of AI? Or could you share what kind of experience you have with programming (how many years, what domain you work in, etc)
        mewpmewp2 2y ago
        The projects I do are mostly frontend in React and backend with TypeScript/Node.js. I have around 10+ years of professional experience although I did on/off hobby coding before that since 15 years ago. It's mostly API endpoints, calling a database, third party APIs, data transformation, aggregation type of things. Then either UI according to what designers provide or whatever I want to do for my side projects. I think it's of course wildly more productive multiplier for side projects, since then it's mostly about typing things out since you know exactly what you want to do and being a little off doesn't matter. I don't want to share any of my actual code right now, but I think one example for example is a React component that needs to fetch some sort of data, e.g. using @tanstack/react-query, then it does loading handling, error handling boilerplate things for me, which some of I change to what I specifically need for that situation, but I need very few keystrokes myself to get the initial boilerplate out that I then edit, and during edits it of course also gives me decent suggestions. And it will create the component prop types based on the args I pass to the component etc. Then with backend, it's really good at data transformations. E.g. combining different datasets, reducing etc. How well it picks the correct libraries and patterns depends on the project and I think how much I've navigated around, I'm not fully sure how the context is exactly passed, so usually I will feel it out and adapt code where necessary.
  - dartos 2y ago
    This is my exact experience as well.
- dartos 2y ago
  I use it for those refactors I mentioned in my comment. It’s autocomplete++, except without knowledge of the rest of my codebase.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  I tried it. It ended up just being slightly better, significantly slower autocomplete.
- iudqnolq 2y ago
  I tried it for a while and thought it was helping a lot. Then I happened to use an IDE without it and realized it was increasing my rate of syntax tokens per hour but reducing the rate of features implemented per hour. In particular I was constantly rewriting boilerplate instead of ever writing helper functions.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
Right, in my experience the time it takes to verify that the code it wrote for you is correct is more than just to write it in the first place. A big exception is if you're working in a new domain (e.g., new language or framework). Then it's obviously much faster, and I do derive value from it. But I don't spend a very large % of my time doing that. I would speculate it's a productivity boost for programmers specifically working in areas that they are new to (or haven't really mastered yet). One question I have is whether overly relying on LLMs will reduce the ability to master a domain, and thus hurt your long-term skill. It might seem silly, like complaining that no one knows assembly anymore because of compilers, but I think it's different than just another layer of abstraction.

by dartos 2y ago

mewpmewp2 2y ago

Most gains are from using Copilot, do you use that?

acedTrex 2y ago
I have it, tried it for a while. I have it turned mostly off new except for rare boilerplate heavy cases. It kept generating annoyingly wrong code. Things with subtly wrong misleading names, missing edge cases, ignoring immediate same file context etc. I found that it slowed me down so i turned it off.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  Which language?
  - acedTrex 2y ago
    golang and python mainly. For rust it failed spectacularly. So bad that its not worth discussing lol
  - homebrewer 2y ago
    Same experience, but with TypeScript and Go. They gave me a 60-day trial (IIRC), I used it for two days, disabled it for the next 58 days, and after that removed it from the editor.
    - mewpmewp2 2y ago
      I get really good results with TypeScript and Python. Like it knows exactly what I want to do, I feel like I think exactly as Copilot does. Maybe I am the statistical average... Makes me wonder if people who don't like Copilot output will not like my natural output as well.
      - dartos 2y ago
        Feel free not to share, I don’t want you to get dogpiled, but if you would humor me, Could you share any code on GitHub (or pastebin or whatever) that you wrote with the help of AI? Or could you share what kind of experience you have with programming (how many years, what domain you work in, etc)
        mewpmewp2 2y ago
        The projects I do are mostly frontend in React and backend with TypeScript/Node.js. I have around 10+ years of professional experience although I did on/off hobby coding before that since 15 years ago. It's mostly API endpoints, calling a database, third party APIs, data transformation, aggregation type of things. Then either UI according to what designers provide or whatever I want to do for my side projects. I think it's of course wildly more productive multiplier for side projects, since then it's mostly about typing things out since you know exactly what you want to do and being a little off doesn't matter. I don't want to share any of my actual code right now, but I think one example for example is a React component that needs to fetch some sort of data, e.g. using @tanstack/react-query, then it does loading handling, error handling boilerplate things for me, which some of I change to what I specifically need for that situation, but I need very few keystrokes myself to get the initial boilerplate out that I then edit, and during edits it of course also gives me decent suggestions. And it will create the component prop types based on the args I pass to the component etc. Then with backend, it's really good at data transformations. E.g. combining different datasets, reducing etc. How well it picks the correct libraries and patterns depends on the project and I think how much I've navigated around, I'm not fully sure how the context is exactly passed, so usually I will feel it out and adapt code where necessary.
- dartos 2y ago
  This is my exact experience as well.
dartos 2y ago
I use it for those refactors I mentioned in my comment. It’s autocomplete++, except without knowledge of the rest of my codebase.
crooked-v 2y ago
I tried it. It ended up just being slightly better, significantly slower autocomplete.
iudqnolq 2y ago
I tried it for a while and thought it was helping a lot. Then I happened to use an IDE without it and realized it was increasing my rate of syntax tokens per hour but reducing the rate of features implemented per hour. In particular I was constantly rewriting boilerplate instead of ever writing helper functions.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago

Right, in my experience the time it takes to verify that the code it wrote for you is correct is more than just to write it in the first place. A big exception is if you're working in a new domain (e.g., new language or framework). Then it's obviously much faster, and I do derive value from it. But I don't spend a very large % of my time doing that. I would speculate it's a productivity boost for programmers specifically working in areas that they are new to (or haven't really mastered yet). One question I have is whether overly relying on LLMs will reduce the ability to master a domain, and thus hurt your long-term skill. It might seem silly, like complaining that no one knows assembly anymore because of compilers, but I think it's different than just another layer of abstraction.