6 ms·

This demonstrates everything that is wrong with Microsoft. They identified a problem, they couldn't get their products up to par with existing processes. So the

by pippy 14y ago

This demonstrates everything that is wrong with Microsoft. They identified a problem, they couldn't get their products up to par with existing processes. So they go out of their way to copy their competitors. By following this methodology they'll always be worse or the same as their competitors. Eventually they'll find a way to lock them out, and then the market will suffer from stagnation. This to me is far more evil than anything Apple has ever done. As long as Microsoft has this culture I can't respect them as a company.

joejohnson 14y ago
I came here to write basically this. Additionally, I think that Microsoft is making a mistake with this Surface tablet. Consumers want a device that will be easy and fun to use, and that has good access to a lot of content. Maybe the iPad will eventually transition into more of a productivity device, but right now consumers (and Apple) don't view the iPad as a PC replacement. Microsoft's approach (one OS for tablets and PCs) was a poor choice; the two devices have different needs, and require different UIs and feature sets. They have done so much work on Windows 8 in order to be a competitor in the "tablet market" but I fear that there is no such market. People don't want tablets as MS invisions them. People want iPads. In my view, the Surface is a step between a laptop and an iPad. Does Microsoft intend for this to unify and replace these? They have produced a product inferior to both an iPad and a laptop, and thus I imagine the Surface will replace neither for most people.
- cooldeal 14y ago
  >People don't want tablets as MS invisions them. People want iPads. How do you know this? What about corporate users and for company owned devices? >They have produced a product inferior to both an iPad and a laptop, and thus I imagine the Surface will replace neither for most people. It can do more than the iPad because you can type on it much more comfortably and has Office and it's better than a laptop because it's much more portable. It's a device with different tradeoffs.
  - daliusd 14y ago
    Actually I find Surface keyboard a joke. I sometimes use my netbook in positions I don't imagine using Surface in. Another point: keyboard and Office for iPad is not problem. Here is keyboard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIJUiTlrGI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIJUiTlrGI and here is Pages http://www.apple.com/ipad/from-the-app-store/apps-by-apple/pages.html http://www.apple.com/ipad/from-the-app-store/apps-by-apple/p.... The only thing that is cool in Surface is pen and again its value is questionable. There are multiple pen solutions for iPad if you really need to.
- WayneDB 14y ago
  I'm a person and I want anything but an iPad. Personally, I can't wait to be able to run a full OS on a 10" tablet.
  - ams6110 14y ago
    I'm sort of wondering, when the trend on the desktop is dual 30" (or more) monitors, how many people will feel like they can do anything "productive" on a 10" tablet, keyboard or no. I can't really imagine doing serious work on a 10" screen. Quick edits, surfing, scanning email and dashing off a quick answer, yeah. But a lot of demand for a "full" OS I'm not sure about.
    - gvnonor 14y ago
      Depends on the person. For most people, having a 10" screen will suffice, because they use the computer mostly to browse the internet and only occasionally need the full capabilities of a desktop OS, like when they need to write a word document or preparing a presentation.
    - jmspring 14y ago
      Most days, I tend to develop on a 30" monitor hooked up to my Mac. That said, when heading to cafes, working on the outdoor patio (like I am now), or traveling, my 11" MacBook Air screen is more sufficient. To make matters worse (or to prove my point), I'm working on some NodeJS code which I will be deploying to Azure a bit later. So, my setup: Macbook Air, Windows 7 in Fusion in Unity mode BBEdit on one desktop Powershell and a couple of other Win7 windows on another desktop This isn't quick edits here. That said, my iPad is mostly for consuming data because I haven't found a development paradigm that works for me. I think the same will hold for WinRT. What is not clear about Surface Pro is if it will get only the Metro UI or if it will get "desktop" as well, given it is slated to have an Intel processor. Work can be done on small screens, the question is, does the type of work you do cater to being done on a small screen. For me, the answer is yes on an MBAir, no (currently) on an iPad, unknown on Surface.
recoiledsnake 14y ago
What you said doesn't make any sense. First of all, Windows 8 or RT is not really a copy of iOS in the sense that Apple scaled iPhone and its software up from the iPhone with only a bump to the resolution. Android is way more a copy of iOS than anything Microsoft out there. Tim Cook called Windows 8 trying to merge a refrigerator and a toaster. Someone at Microsoft countered by saying it was converging a oven and a toaster and making a toaster oven. So, there's a fundamental difference between their visions for tablets with Android aligning itself with Apple on this. >By following this methodology they'll always be worse or the same as their competitors. There are a whole bunch of people who want a device that goes between an iPad and the Macbook Air and Apple doesn't seem to care. For those people, Windows 8 (on something like Surface Pro with the keyboard) may actually be better than "same or worse" than iPad or other Android tablets. >Eventually they'll find a way to lock them out, and then the market will suffer from stagnation. For almost all the products that lost to Microsoft, it has been significant missteps by the rivals while Microsoft concentrated on making the best product(usually by version 3). It was the same with Excel, Word, Windows and even IE (see http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html and http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html ) For the latest example of this happening, see XBox 360 vs. PS3. >This to me is far more evil than anything Apple has ever done. As long as Microsoft has this culture I can't respect them as a company. Making better products than their rivals is evil compared to things like charging 30% forcibly for all in-app purchases and rejecting a Android magazine app from the App store?
- pippy 14y ago
  I was concentrating on their creation process and it's impact on innovation and the technology industry as a whole. Regarding your example, tablet devices Android and iPad have distinct methodologies, Android being open and developer orientated while iPads are consumer focused. The app stores have both positive and negative points, but to software developers it's been a huge opportunity. It's funny you should mention the stagnated gaming industry. The current consoles are nearly a decade old, and Nintendo seem to be the only ones thinking outside the box.
WayneDB 14y ago
Meanwhile, Apple has hidden APIs that nobody is allowed to use to compete with Apple's software, they have stolen ideas from their own developer community and incorporated them into OS X and they are generally unfriendly to developers. I'm not sure why you respect them at all.
- rweir 14y ago
  > Apple has hidden APIs that nobody is allowed to use to compete with Apple's software which APIs do they not let others use (aside from the icon updating thing Calendar uses, siri, and weather/stocks)?
  - pyre 14y ago
    Off the top of my head, 'back in the day,' the transition animations on OSX were private APIs and only used by Apple software. Some smaller software products that did things like hack in virtual desktop support hooked into them, but it also meant that OS updates could break the software (mostly after major revision updates).
  - mikeash 14y ago
    Apple's iBooks app used a private API to allow the user to adjust the screen brightness in-app. This API was finally made public about a year and a half after iBooks shipped. A more visible example is when Apple rejected a third-party camera app for using private API to allow the volume button to be used to take a picture, then not too long after incorporated that exact feature into the OS's built-in camera app.

by pippy 14y ago

joejohnson 14y ago

I came here to write basically this. Additionally, I think that Microsoft is making a mistake with this Surface tablet. Consumers want a device that will be easy and fun to use, and that has good access to a lot of content. Maybe the iPad will eventually transition into more of a productivity device, but right now consumers (and Apple) don't view the iPad as a PC replacement. Microsoft's approach (one OS for tablets and PCs) was a poor choice; the two devices have different needs, and require different UIs and feature sets. They have done so much work on Windows 8 in order to be a competitor in the "tablet market" but I fear that there is no such market. People don't want tablets as MS invisions them. People want iPads. In my view, the Surface is a step between a laptop and an iPad. Does Microsoft intend for this to unify and replace these? They have produced a product inferior to both an iPad and a laptop, and thus I imagine the Surface will replace neither for most people.

cooldeal 14y ago
>People don't want tablets as MS invisions them. People want iPads. How do you know this? What about corporate users and for company owned devices? >They have produced a product inferior to both an iPad and a laptop, and thus I imagine the Surface will replace neither for most people. It can do more than the iPad because you can type on it much more comfortably and has Office and it's better than a laptop because it's much more portable. It's a device with different tradeoffs.
- daliusd 14y ago
  Actually I find Surface keyboard a joke. I sometimes use my netbook in positions I don't imagine using Surface in. Another point: keyboard and Office for iPad is not problem. Here is keyboard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIJUiTlrGI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIJUiTlrGI and here is Pages http://www.apple.com/ipad/from-the-app-store/apps-by-apple/pages.html http://www.apple.com/ipad/from-the-app-store/apps-by-apple/p.... The only thing that is cool in Surface is pen and again its value is questionable. There are multiple pen solutions for iPad if you really need to.
WayneDB 14y ago
I'm a person and I want anything but an iPad. Personally, I can't wait to be able to run a full OS on a 10" tablet.
- ams6110 14y ago
  I'm sort of wondering, when the trend on the desktop is dual 30" (or more) monitors, how many people will feel like they can do anything "productive" on a 10" tablet, keyboard or no. I can't really imagine doing serious work on a 10" screen. Quick edits, surfing, scanning email and dashing off a quick answer, yeah. But a lot of demand for a "full" OS I'm not sure about.
  - gvnonor 14y ago
    Depends on the person. For most people, having a 10" screen will suffice, because they use the computer mostly to browse the internet and only occasionally need the full capabilities of a desktop OS, like when they need to write a word document or preparing a presentation.
  - jmspring 14y ago
    Most days, I tend to develop on a 30" monitor hooked up to my Mac. That said, when heading to cafes, working on the outdoor patio (like I am now), or traveling, my 11" MacBook Air screen is more sufficient. To make matters worse (or to prove my point), I'm working on some NodeJS code which I will be deploying to Azure a bit later. So, my setup: Macbook Air, Windows 7 in Fusion in Unity mode BBEdit on one desktop Powershell and a couple of other Win7 windows on another desktop This isn't quick edits here. That said, my iPad is mostly for consuming data because I haven't found a development paradigm that works for me. I think the same will hold for WinRT. What is not clear about Surface Pro is if it will get only the Metro UI or if it will get "desktop" as well, given it is slated to have an Intel processor. Work can be done on small screens, the question is, does the type of work you do cater to being done on a small screen. For me, the answer is yes on an MBAir, no (currently) on an iPad, unknown on Surface.

recoiledsnake 14y ago

What you said doesn't make any sense. First of all, Windows 8 or RT is not really a copy of iOS in the sense that Apple scaled iPhone and its software up from the iPhone with only a bump to the resolution. Android is way more a copy of iOS than anything Microsoft out there. Tim Cook called Windows 8 trying to merge a refrigerator and a toaster. Someone at Microsoft countered by saying it was converging a oven and a toaster and making a toaster oven. So, there's a fundamental difference between their visions for tablets with Android aligning itself with Apple on this. >By following this methodology they'll always be worse or the same as their competitors. There are a whole bunch of people who want a device that goes between an iPad and the Macbook Air and Apple doesn't seem to care. For those people, Windows 8 (on something like Surface Pro with the keyboard) may actually be better than "same or worse" than iPad or other Android tablets. >Eventually they'll find a way to lock them out, and then the market will suffer from stagnation. For almost all the products that lost to Microsoft, it has been significant missteps by the rivals while Microsoft concentrated on making the best product(usually by version 3). It was the same with Excel, Word, Windows and even IE (see http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html and http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000027.html ) For the latest example of this happening, see XBox 360 vs. PS3. >This to me is far more evil than anything Apple has ever done. As long as Microsoft has this culture I can't respect them as a company. Making better products than their rivals is evil compared to things like charging 30% forcibly for all in-app purchases and rejecting a Android magazine app from the App store?

pippy 14y ago
I was concentrating on their creation process and it's impact on innovation and the technology industry as a whole. Regarding your example, tablet devices Android and iPad have distinct methodologies, Android being open and developer orientated while iPads are consumer focused. The app stores have both positive and negative points, but to software developers it's been a huge opportunity. It's funny you should mention the stagnated gaming industry. The current consoles are nearly a decade old, and Nintendo seem to be the only ones thinking outside the box.

WayneDB 14y ago

Meanwhile, Apple has hidden APIs that nobody is allowed to use to compete with Apple's software, they have stolen ideas from their own developer community and incorporated them into OS X and they are generally unfriendly to developers. I'm not sure why you respect them at all.

rweir 14y ago
> Apple has hidden APIs that nobody is allowed to use to compete with Apple's software which APIs do they not let others use (aside from the icon updating thing Calendar uses, siri, and weather/stocks)?
- pyre 14y ago
  Off the top of my head, 'back in the day,' the transition animations on OSX were private APIs and only used by Apple software. Some smaller software products that did things like hack in virtual desktop support hooked into them, but it also meant that OS updates could break the software (mostly after major revision updates).
- mikeash 14y ago
  Apple's iBooks app used a private API to allow the user to adjust the screen brightness in-app. This API was finally made public about a year and a half after iBooks shipped. A more visible example is when Apple rejected a third-party camera app for using private API to allow the volume button to be used to take a picture, then not too long after incorporated that exact feature into the OS's built-in camera app.