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I studied bioinformatics in university back in 2005, and the first subject we were trained on was not Python or Java, but using Excel. Our teachers explicitly t

I studied bioinformatics in university back in 2005, and the first subject we were trained on was not Python or Java, but using Excel. Our teachers explicitly told us about excel's conversions to dates and other pitfalls. I find it mind-boggling that some researchers still made these mistakes 10 years later. Excel is a wonderful tool. But you need to learn your tools and find out about possible footguns.

rectang 2y ago
Haranguing your users not to make mistakes is utterly worthless. The only way to move the needle is to design systems that are easier to use correctly.
- nitwit005 2y ago
  This isn't Microsoft lecturing them. It's entirely valid for the school to tell students to avoid easily avoidable pitfalls.
  - rectang 2y ago
    Of course they can lecture them — it just isn't going to work. The error rates will barely budge. There is one effect: it allows smug gloating about how stupid, lazy, and irresponsible these users are. Blaming the user is the last refuge of the incompetent.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      > Blaming the user is the last refuge of the incompetent. Why then is it the dominating mindset in software design today, and advertised as being the opposite to the mindset that gives you Excel?
- prepend 2y ago
  Excel is not a genetics tool. It has millions if use cases, many more important than genetics. Excel didn’t care about this. It’s like people complaining because sugar gets misused. Or that murderers stab people with knives. The solutions isn’t to “fix” knives.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Excel is a tool for general-purpose data processing. What the genetics people are doing is exactly that.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Also it is a somewhat working solution, to ban knives in certain places, like clubs, so people don't become drunk murderers in the first place ..
    - jbjbjbjb 2y ago
      General purpose means you’re trying to meet general purposes not every specialised purpose
  - bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
    It's not like you have to be in genetics for excel to bite you. I once had a “business” column in a CSV with one cell set to July 11. Why? Because the business was 7/11. (I assume in a different locale it would've become November 7?) The simple solution is to do what every CSV → DataFrame library does, which is ensure columns are a homogenous type. In this case a single non-date entry in a column would be enough to treat the whole column as string.
  - Mistletoe 2y ago
    Perhaps the first time you start excel maybe a short setup tutorial that sets the default parameters you want for every spreadsheet you create.
    - prepend 2y ago
      I don’t think it would have much of an impact. And I hate those forced wizards and tutorials as I use excel in lots of environments. I remember Excel team writing about why they didn’t have advanced settings to turn it off. I don’t remember the rationale but I’d rather have some switches I can set for the situations where I don’t want it. Although I do want it on and just check my data types. And for the most part I solved this by opening and never editing in Excel. It seems to be the one hack I’ve gotten coworkers to stick with is “don’t click save” when opening large files in Excel.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > The only way to move the needle is to design systems that are easier to use correctly. If you do it like most software vendors do, by simplifying and removing functionality, you're moving the needle in the wrong direction.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Depends I think. Ideally on the screen UI only those things are shown, that are relevant in the context. And the context of beginners is very small, so they don't need to see advanced tools they never will use anyway. But for sure it is not the right way to also remove the tools for the advanced users who do need them. But it is possible to make UIs that can be customized ..
- eviks 2y ago
  Do you think the comment is written by Microsoft??? The sloppy researchers are not his users. Another way to move the needle is to place higher value on technical competence.
mobilio 2y ago
Follow up: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

rectang 2y ago

Haranguing your users not to make mistakes is utterly worthless. The only way to move the needle is to design systems that are easier to use correctly.

nitwit005 2y ago
This isn't Microsoft lecturing them. It's entirely valid for the school to tell students to avoid easily avoidable pitfalls.
- rectang 2y ago
  Of course they can lecture them — it just isn't going to work. The error rates will barely budge. There is one effect: it allows smug gloating about how stupid, lazy, and irresponsible these users are. Blaming the user is the last refuge of the incompetent.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > Blaming the user is the last refuge of the incompetent. Why then is it the dominating mindset in software design today, and advertised as being the opposite to the mindset that gives you Excel?
prepend 2y ago
Excel is not a genetics tool. It has millions if use cases, many more important than genetics. Excel didn’t care about this. It’s like people complaining because sugar gets misused. Or that murderers stab people with knives. The solutions isn’t to “fix” knives.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Excel is a tool for general-purpose data processing. What the genetics people are doing is exactly that.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Also it is a somewhat working solution, to ban knives in certain places, like clubs, so people don't become drunk murderers in the first place ..
  - jbjbjbjb 2y ago
    General purpose means you’re trying to meet general purposes not every specialised purpose
- bobbylarrybobby 2y ago
  It's not like you have to be in genetics for excel to bite you. I once had a “business” column in a CSV with one cell set to July 11. Why? Because the business was 7/11. (I assume in a different locale it would've become November 7?) The simple solution is to do what every CSV → DataFrame library does, which is ensure columns are a homogenous type. In this case a single non-date entry in a column would be enough to treat the whole column as string.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  Perhaps the first time you start excel maybe a short setup tutorial that sets the default parameters you want for every spreadsheet you create.
  - prepend 2y ago
    I don’t think it would have much of an impact. And I hate those forced wizards and tutorials as I use excel in lots of environments. I remember Excel team writing about why they didn’t have advanced settings to turn it off. I don’t remember the rationale but I’d rather have some switches I can set for the situations where I don’t want it. Although I do want it on and just check my data types. And for the most part I solved this by opening and never editing in Excel. It seems to be the one hack I’ve gotten coworkers to stick with is “don’t click save” when opening large files in Excel.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> The only way to move the needle is to design systems that are easier to use correctly. If you do it like most software vendors do, by simplifying and removing functionality, you're moving the needle in the wrong direction.
- lukan 2y ago
  Depends I think. Ideally on the screen UI only those things are shown, that are relevant in the context. And the context of beginners is very small, so they don't need to see advanced tools they never will use anyway. But for sure it is not the right way to also remove the tools for the advanced users who do need them. But it is possible to make UIs that can be customized ..
eviks 2y ago
Do you think the comment is written by Microsoft??? The sloppy researchers are not his users. Another way to move the needle is to place higher value on technical competence.

mobilio 2y ago

Follow up: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]