3 ms·

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. And I too find it surprising how people often downplay animal sentience and awareness, and capacity for suffering. There i

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. And I too find it surprising how people often downplay animal sentience and awareness, and capacity for suffering. There is ample evidence of these in primates, cetaceans, birds such as corvids, and domestic animals like dogs and cats. But killing a large animal, like a cow, by hand using a knife is hardly "humane" or "unavoidable". The slaughtered animal would experience severe pain and awareness of its situation before it eventually loses consciousness.

fnordpiglet 2y ago
If done right the time of awareness is brief when slaughtering with a knife. A bolt gun is better for sure but not guaranteed by any measure. The truth is it is more about the person than the tool - their experience, thoughtfulness, and compassion. But the suffering doesn’t start with the fatal injury and suffering is often less about pain and more about the torment of what’s about to happen. That’s true for people and for animals. IMO that’s the point
netsharc 2y ago
I wonder how animals understand death, because to understand death they'd need to understand consciousness and the lack of it, and I feel like that's human level complex thinking. Animals have logic, of course, IF predator is coming at me THEN I have to run for my life BECAUSE ... because they run on instinct? Because their herd does the same? Because they've learnt about what death is? Mountain goats have probably slipped and fallen off cliffs, but I doubt they have fear of heights. Interestingly they probably are able to calculate whether a jump is doable or not, but do they doubt themselves? I guess cats and dogs show doubt..
- fnordpiglet 2y ago
  I think it’s strange to believe as evolved animals like them we somehow evolved awareness of ourselves when nothing else did and every other animals is basically a reactionary meat machine operating on preprogrammed instinct. This feels like something more likely intensely fundamental to most animals but our lack of experience with them in our life makes us doubt. But pet owners know for a fact their pets are aware and think and feel in some approximate way to how we do. I think life, death, and consciousness are all hallmarks of most animals experience. In fact I think it’s fundamental to adaptability to complex and new experiences in the wild and survival and is why complex animals are more complex on their behavior than say single celled animals.

fnordpiglet 2y ago

If done right the time of awareness is brief when slaughtering with a knife. A bolt gun is better for sure but not guaranteed by any measure. The truth is it is more about the person than the tool - their experience, thoughtfulness, and compassion. But the suffering doesn’t start with the fatal injury and suffering is often less about pain and more about the torment of what’s about to happen. That’s true for people and for animals. IMO that’s the point

netsharc 2y ago

I wonder how animals understand death, because to understand death they'd need to understand consciousness and the lack of it, and I feel like that's human level complex thinking. Animals have logic, of course, IF predator is coming at me THEN I have to run for my life BECAUSE ... because they run on instinct? Because their herd does the same? Because they've learnt about what death is? Mountain goats have probably slipped and fallen off cliffs, but I doubt they have fear of heights. Interestingly they probably are able to calculate whether a jump is doable or not, but do they doubt themselves? I guess cats and dogs show doubt..

fnordpiglet 2y ago
I think it’s strange to believe as evolved animals like them we somehow evolved awareness of ourselves when nothing else did and every other animals is basically a reactionary meat machine operating on preprogrammed instinct. This feels like something more likely intensely fundamental to most animals but our lack of experience with them in our life makes us doubt. But pet owners know for a fact their pets are aware and think and feel in some approximate way to how we do. I think life, death, and consciousness are all hallmarks of most animals experience. In fact I think it’s fundamental to adaptability to complex and new experiences in the wild and survival and is why complex animals are more complex on their behavior than say single celled animals.