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> Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay fo

> Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay for it via taxes. If they don't, then they aren't crippled by debt. The problem with the ROI approach is it still places too much burden on the student, and, well, life happens. Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI.

robertlagrant 2y ago
> Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. That's why the article's saying you should be able to declare bankruptcy. > And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI. Teaching is relatively well paid and there are huge numbers of jobs. It's highly likely that a teacher could repay loans. There are plenty of degrees far less capable of providing employment than teaching.
- Cyph0n 2y ago
  Teaching as in school teachers? In the US? Not even close to being well paid.
- magnoliakobus 2y ago
  I think most people would agree with me in saying the European model sounds pretty swell compared to forcing people into declaring bankruptcy because of economic/personal factors potentially out of their control, while also inserting an incredible amount of volatility into the entire university system that would make long term institutional planning much less possible.
  - kraussvonespy 2y ago
    And in the US, bankruptcy doesn't help with the student debt, so if the majority of your debt is student loans, there's really nothing that can be done other than die to get rid of them. And I'm 100% certain that if the student loan - industrial complex could saddle relatives and kids with that debt after death, they'd sure go after that too.
  - luckylion 2y ago
    Many will agree, but that's part of the reason why the US has a 50% higher GDP with 30% lower population. Focusing on well-beeing, fun and experience comes at a price.
    - GreenWatermelon 2y ago
      GDP that's concentrated in the top few % of the population. The fact that despite 50% higher GPD and 30% less population there's still rampant homelessness is damning enough.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        > The fact that despite 50% higher GPD and 30% less population there's still rampant homelessness is damning enough. You can't solve all of that through GDP. There are social and drug and mental health issues that seem to not present to nearly the same extent.
    - dahart 2y ago
      The U.S. GDP per capita is behind Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, and these countries are known for low cost and excellent education. What do you mean about 30% lower population? How is that relevant? You’re quoting a per-capita stat, the population was already factored out. And you’re comparing a single country to 27 countries. Makes zero sense.
  - BeetleB 2y ago
    Be careful what you wish for. The majority of my fellow engineering graduates would not have gotten an engineering degree in Germany. They would have flunked the first year - a weed out year - and then been forced into a technical diploma program and not be allowed to call themselves engineers. My friend who went to the German school said they have a target of flunking half the students that first year. Funds are limited and shape how many can graduate.
- chrisweekly 2y ago
  > "Teaching is relatively well paid" Compared to what? In the US, teachers are absolutely underpaid relative to their similarly-educated and -skilled peers in other professions.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - schaefer 2y ago
    You forgot to mention teachers in the US are also overworked.
    - chrisweekly 2y ago
      Sure -- though that's almost just two ways of describing the same thing. If teachers were paid $500k, few would describe them as overworked, and if they only had to work 4-hour days (with current salaries and benefits), they might be fairly compensated.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Compared to degrees that could struggle on average to pay back a loan, e.g. a degree in the humanities.
    - chrisweekly 2y ago
      Not to be argumentative (really ), but that's borderline nonsensical; you're comparing a profession to a broad category of educational attainment. Teachers typically have a degree in the humanities. What other profession is so commonly viewed as underpaid?
sieabahlpark 2y ago
[dead]
gruez 2y ago
>In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay for it via taxes. If they don't, then they aren't crippled by debt. That's all well and good for the student, but what about for taxpayers/governments who's funding that education? >And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI. Sounds like the solution is to raise teacher pay, which would also have the added benefit of retaining teachers after they graduate. Giving teachers cheap training but paying them poorly seems worse than the status quo because you end up shoveling money into training teachers that'd end up dropping out anyways.
- tough 2y ago
  A country's which population is educated, usually bodes well, unless it's an authoritative govt one, in which case dumbing down the population is the way (from the govt POV, at least)
- crazygringo 2y ago
  > That's all well and good for the student, but what about for taxpayers/governments who's funding that education? We can say the same thing about K-12 education -- it's just something we choose to fund collectively, because that's the kind of society we want to be. But also, progressive taxation means that the rich fund it more than the poor. So the general idea is that if law school and medical school are expensive to provide but result in vastly higher salaries, then it gets paid for in the end out of those lawyers' and doctors' taxes. Not the taxes from average Americans.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    Progressive taxation isn’t even necessary. If someone makes $10,000 and is taxed 10%, they give up $1,000. And if someone makes $10,000,000 then they give up $1,000,000.
    - nyokodo 2y ago
      > Progressive taxation isn’t even necessary It isn’t necessary, no, and in fact a flat super simple tax code would probably result in more tax revenue. However, since politicians like the power of the tax code, and because the wealthy like a complex tax code for all the loopholes, and since ordinary people like the idea of those wealthier than them paying more tax as a percentage of their income, then we’re never going to get a simple tax code.
fardo 2y ago
Simpler isn’t always preferable: note that the key feature from the consumer perspective in that system is > you pay no matter what Meaning if it’s assumed “despite learning little, you still will be able to pay for it”, there’s no longer any motive force towards quality, as your payment is assured. Incentives on taxpayers thereafter who want to minimize their tax burden would therefore be optimizing primarily toward cheapness of the educational process, rather than efficacy and quality of the education which outbound students received. A vigorous market for education, would suggest you would likely get a variety of nodes along a “costliness to quality” options frontier.
- eesmith 2y ago
  > there’s no longer any motive force towards quality, as your payment is assured There are many excellent European universities, including ones which have been around for centuries, telling me there are ways to handle your concerns. > A vigorous market for education How's that Corinthian Colleges degree working out? Costly and no quality. And exactly the life-crippling outcome we should expect in a 'vigorous market'.
  - fardo 2y ago
    This is non-responsive to my point. Pointing out that paid universities like Corinthian in a grossly distorted market predictably are not very competitive offerings, or that good offerings can nevertheless still exist in heavily distorted markets, both fail to address that > Current educational incentives caused by how payment is handled in these all-pay systems mean there is very little or no pressure exerted towards promoting an educational arms race towards quality, rather than minimizing cost to service that education. In a more competitive market, yes, I believe you'd both likely see better European offerings, as well as substantially more compelling American paid offerings than the current batch of cash grab for-profit universities. They exist in their current form almost exclusively because financial lenders in the US have no incentive not to issue loans to students - even if the program is bogus, they are guaranteed re-payment. This is a commonality shared between both current European offerings (via taxation guaranteeing repayment), and American alternatives (via guaranteed load repayment).
screcth 2y ago
[dead]
tourmalinetaco 2y ago
In the USA, the government also pays for education. That’s part of the problem, in fact. Since the loan to the college is always paid for by the government, the college is effectively handed a blank check. Said check, now filled in with an arbitrarily high amount, is handed to the student as a bill to pay back to the government. The same is done in your system, in fact, except that the entire country suffers that burden, regardless of if that degree actually amounts to any meaningful contribution.
vondur 2y ago
I would imagine in Europe they select more carefully the students whom will go to College. Here in the US we've told students that everyone must go to College. We now have too many people in College and many of them aren't going to be successful once they are in. It's not sustainable. In many of our public universities, the graduation rate is well below 50%
- sofixa 2y ago
  > I would imagine in Europe they select more carefully the students whom will go to College. Here in the US we've told students that everyone must go to College You imagine wrong. Pretty much everyone goes to university in most and European countries. Even in wildly tourist dependent places, a degree in tourism is a normal thing for a young person to pursue before going to work at hotels/restaurants.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - dukeyukey 2y ago
    It's actually less than half for the EU as a whole - https://erudera.com/news/statistics-show-41-of-eu-youngsters-hold-a-higher-education-degree/ https://erudera.com/news/statistics-show-41-of-eu-youngsters...
    - sofixa 2y ago
      The absurdly low numbers for Romania and Hungary make me think that people leaving to study abroad fall through the cracks in these stats.
      - dukeyukey 2y ago
        If those students/graduates move to other European countries (which they mostly do), they'll be counted in their destination country, evening things out. Where did you get the idea most Europeans get a degree?
jimbob45 2y ago
Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. And if you’re a nurse or a police officer or a teacher or a lawyer and you lose your license under specious circumstances, it really sucks to be you.
golemiprague 2y ago
[dead]
BurningFrog 2y ago
> In Europe, they have a simpler system Europe does NOT have an education system! The ~50 different European countries all have their own systems, with huge differences between them.
bradleyjg 2y ago
It’s not much better for the taxpayers to be lighting money on fire. Also, the students still pay for it in the most precious currency there is—-time. Credentialism is pernicious regardless.

robertlagrant 2y ago

> Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. That's why the article's saying you should be able to declare bankruptcy. > And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI. Teaching is relatively well paid and there are huge numbers of jobs. It's highly likely that a teacher could repay loans. There are plenty of degrees far less capable of providing employment than teaching.

Cyph0n 2y ago
Teaching as in school teachers? In the US? Not even close to being well paid.
magnoliakobus 2y ago
I think most people would agree with me in saying the European model sounds pretty swell compared to forcing people into declaring bankruptcy because of economic/personal factors potentially out of their control, while also inserting an incredible amount of volatility into the entire university system that would make long term institutional planning much less possible.
- kraussvonespy 2y ago
  And in the US, bankruptcy doesn't help with the student debt, so if the majority of your debt is student loans, there's really nothing that can be done other than die to get rid of them. And I'm 100% certain that if the student loan - industrial complex could saddle relatives and kids with that debt after death, they'd sure go after that too.
- luckylion 2y ago
  Many will agree, but that's part of the reason why the US has a 50% higher GDP with 30% lower population. Focusing on well-beeing, fun and experience comes at a price.
  - GreenWatermelon 2y ago
    GDP that's concentrated in the top few % of the population. The fact that despite 50% higher GPD and 30% less population there's still rampant homelessness is damning enough.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      > The fact that despite 50% higher GPD and 30% less population there's still rampant homelessness is damning enough. You can't solve all of that through GDP. There are social and drug and mental health issues that seem to not present to nearly the same extent.
  - dahart 2y ago
    The U.S. GDP per capita is behind Norway, Ireland, Switzerland, and these countries are known for low cost and excellent education. What do you mean about 30% lower population? How is that relevant? You’re quoting a per-capita stat, the population was already factored out. And you’re comparing a single country to 27 countries. Makes zero sense.
- BeetleB 2y ago
  Be careful what you wish for. The majority of my fellow engineering graduates would not have gotten an engineering degree in Germany. They would have flunked the first year - a weed out year - and then been forced into a technical diploma program and not be allowed to call themselves engineers. My friend who went to the German school said they have a target of flunking half the students that first year. Funds are limited and shape how many can graduate.
chrisweekly 2y ago
> "Teaching is relatively well paid" Compared to what? In the US, teachers are absolutely underpaid relative to their similarly-educated and -skilled peers in other professions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- schaefer 2y ago
  You forgot to mention teachers in the US are also overworked.
  - chrisweekly 2y ago
    Sure -- though that's almost just two ways of describing the same thing. If teachers were paid $500k, few would describe them as overworked, and if they only had to work 4-hour days (with current salaries and benefits), they might be fairly compensated.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Compared to degrees that could struggle on average to pay back a loan, e.g. a degree in the humanities.
  - chrisweekly 2y ago
    Not to be argumentative (really ), but that's borderline nonsensical; you're comparing a profession to a broad category of educational attainment. Teachers typically have a degree in the humanities. What other profession is so commonly viewed as underpaid?

sieabahlpark 2y ago

[dead]

gruez 2y ago

>In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay for it via taxes. If they don't, then they aren't crippled by debt. That's all well and good for the student, but what about for taxpayers/governments who's funding that education? >And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI. Sounds like the solution is to raise teacher pay, which would also have the added benefit of retaining teachers after they graduate. Giving teachers cheap training but paying them poorly seems worse than the status quo because you end up shoveling money into training teachers that'd end up dropping out anyways.

tough 2y ago
A country's which population is educated, usually bodes well, unless it's an authoritative govt one, in which case dumbing down the population is the way (from the govt POV, at least)
crazygringo 2y ago
> That's all well and good for the student, but what about for taxpayers/governments who's funding that education? We can say the same thing about K-12 education -- it's just something we choose to fund collectively, because that's the kind of society we want to be. But also, progressive taxation means that the rich fund it more than the poor. So the general idea is that if law school and medical school are expensive to provide but result in vastly higher salaries, then it gets paid for in the end out of those lawyers' and doctors' taxes. Not the taxes from average Americans.
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  Progressive taxation isn’t even necessary. If someone makes $10,000 and is taxed 10%, they give up $1,000. And if someone makes $10,000,000 then they give up $1,000,000.
  - nyokodo 2y ago
    > Progressive taxation isn’t even necessary It isn’t necessary, no, and in fact a flat super simple tax code would probably result in more tax revenue. However, since politicians like the power of the tax code, and because the wealthy like a complex tax code for all the loopholes, and since ordinary people like the idea of those wealthier than them paying more tax as a percentage of their income, then we’re never going to get a simple tax code.

fardo 2y ago

Simpler isn’t always preferable: note that the key feature from the consumer perspective in that system is > you pay no matter what Meaning if it’s assumed “despite learning little, you still will be able to pay for it”, there’s no longer any motive force towards quality, as your payment is assured. Incentives on taxpayers thereafter who want to minimize their tax burden would therefore be optimizing primarily toward cheapness of the educational process, rather than efficacy and quality of the education which outbound students received. A vigorous market for education, would suggest you would likely get a variety of nodes along a “costliness to quality” options frontier.

eesmith 2y ago
> there’s no longer any motive force towards quality, as your payment is assured There are many excellent European universities, including ones which have been around for centuries, telling me there are ways to handle your concerns. > A vigorous market for education How's that Corinthian Colleges degree working out? Costly and no quality. And exactly the life-crippling outcome we should expect in a 'vigorous market'.
- fardo 2y ago
  This is non-responsive to my point. Pointing out that paid universities like Corinthian in a grossly distorted market predictably are not very competitive offerings, or that good offerings can nevertheless still exist in heavily distorted markets, both fail to address that > Current educational incentives caused by how payment is handled in these all-pay systems mean there is very little or no pressure exerted towards promoting an educational arms race towards quality, rather than minimizing cost to service that education. In a more competitive market, yes, I believe you'd both likely see better European offerings, as well as substantially more compelling American paid offerings than the current batch of cash grab for-profit universities. They exist in their current form almost exclusively because financial lenders in the US have no incentive not to issue loans to students - even if the program is bogus, they are guaranteed re-payment. This is a commonality shared between both current European offerings (via taxation guaranteeing repayment), and American alternatives (via guaranteed load repayment).

screcth 2y ago

[dead]

tourmalinetaco 2y ago

In the USA, the government also pays for education. That’s part of the problem, in fact. Since the loan to the college is always paid for by the government, the college is effectively handed a blank check. Said check, now filled in with an arbitrarily high amount, is handed to the student as a bill to pay back to the government. The same is done in your system, in fact, except that the entire country suffers that burden, regardless of if that degree actually amounts to any meaningful contribution.

vondur 2y ago

I would imagine in Europe they select more carefully the students whom will go to College. Here in the US we've told students that everyone must go to College. We now have too many people in College and many of them aren't going to be successful once they are in. It's not sustainable. In many of our public universities, the graduation rate is well below 50%

sofixa 2y ago
> I would imagine in Europe they select more carefully the students whom will go to College. Here in the US we've told students that everyone must go to College You imagine wrong. Pretty much everyone goes to university in most and European countries. Even in wildly tourist dependent places, a degree in tourism is a normal thing for a young person to pursue before going to work at hotels/restaurants.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dukeyukey 2y ago
  It's actually less than half for the EU as a whole - https://erudera.com/news/statistics-show-41-of-eu-youngsters-hold-a-higher-education-degree/ https://erudera.com/news/statistics-show-41-of-eu-youngsters...
  - sofixa 2y ago
    The absurdly low numbers for Romania and Hungary make me think that people leaving to study abroad fall through the cracks in these stats.
    - dukeyukey 2y ago
      If those students/graduates move to other European countries (which they mostly do), they'll be counted in their destination country, evening things out. Where did you get the idea most Europeans get a degree?

jimbob45 2y ago

Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. And if you’re a nurse or a police officer or a teacher or a lawyer and you lose your license under specious circumstances, it really sucks to be you.

golemiprague 2y ago

[dead]

BurningFrog 2y ago

> In Europe, they have a simpler system Europe does NOT have an education system! The ~50 different European countries all have their own systems, with huge differences between them.

bradleyjg 2y ago

It’s not much better for the taxpayers to be lighting money on fire. Also, the students still pay for it in the most precious currency there is—-time. Credentialism is pernicious regardless.