10 ms·

MicroPython on Flipper Zero

174 points by psvisualdesign 2y ago

psvisualdesign 2y ago
Has anyone tried to run Micropython on the Flipper Zero? I'm using Micropython on my ESPs, but not in the Flipper Zero. With the new Firmware 1.0 you can also use JavaScript. Now the question is: what's easier/better for own plugins/apps? Micropython, Javascript or the native Flipper language?
- therealfiona 2y ago
  Isn't native C/C++? I'd expect C to run the best due to it being compiled. JS is pretty quick, but we're talking a microcontroller, so any speed you can pickup by reducing computation cycles is a win. Easiest/better is using what you already know as that'll provide the best speed to MVP. If it's too slow in Python/JS, but it seems like a useful thing, it's probably worth rolling up your sleeves and learning some C. At least enough to build a python library.
  - markb139 2y ago
    From my experience on the Raspberry Pi rp2040, adding C code to a micropython build is very straightforward
jordigh 2y ago
This makes me long for the days of RockBox on Sansa Clip devices. https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipzip/rockbox-buildch12.html#x15-20000012.1.12 https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipz...
- forgotacc240419 2y ago
  Still using one daily
  - jordigh 2y ago
    Which model? My Sansa Clips all died in various ways. Maybe I was too rough on them.
    - forgotacc240419 2y ago
      I've a few backups but I've only destroyed one of them (somehow fried the board soldering the headphone jack back down). They're fairly durable other than the headphone jack and the clip from what I've seen
- sikhnerd 2y ago
  I 100% miss the golden age of running RockBox on my iriver h120. Such an amazing firmware (and hardware)
- namuol 2y ago
  You can get “broken” ones on EBay pretty cheap. Be careful prying them open though - there’s no aftermarket shells unfortunately. I spent a weekend not long ago upgrading a broken Sansa Clip+ with a new battery, RockBox, and a USB-C port - first one with USB-C AFAIK. Oh and I replaced all the SMD buttons too while I was at it. I’m very happy with how it turned out! I only wish I knew how to do something more advanced like adding Bluetooth audio capability that doesn’t just hook into the DAC output and sound terrible.
  - forgotacc240419 2y ago
    How was the usb c installation? Feels a bit beyond my soldering skills. I mainly use a zip but I put together a very slim mini to c cable for my Clip+ that does the job. Don't suppose you could tell me the name of the part they use for the headphone jack? I can find loads that look almost right but never the exact model
    - namuol 2y ago
      It was pretty intense, but mostly because I’m clumsy and didn’t plan anything. There’s not a lot of room on the board, so I soldered 0402 resistors directly to the pins on the port to allow it to work with modern PD chargers, and I had to expose a few traces so I could jump the pins since it didn’t align with the mini usb pads. Fortunately I was able to solder its feet to the main structural pads and it’s a good firm connection. I bought an assorted usb-c port kit from Amazon with something like 10 varieties and chose the port that best fit onto the board. I needed to bend the legs a bit but it worked. I used a digital microscope and fine solder tips. There’s no “easy” way to do this that I’m aware of, especially since I chose low melt solder to avoid melting the port’s plastic, which meant the jumper wire conducted enough heat to desolder the other connection if I didn’t work quickly! This experience had me wondering if I could design a little thin adapter pcb to make the process less error prone, but I’ve never done anything like that before… What’s wrong with your audio port? To find a replacement you might want to get some cheap calipers and measure a bunch of stuff to compare with components on digikey/mouser/aliexpress. Or you may just be able to repair it instead of replacing it. Could be it just needs its pins reflowed to the board if you haven’t tried that yet. I hope you can fix it - good luck!
oulipo 2y ago
Is there a comparison of the memory footprint of each VM? and whether there are guarantees with memory allocation / crash robustness etc ?
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
Hah, talk about good timing. I just got my flipper:D I have a weird related question and I am not looking for a full answer, but rather on what/where would be a good resource to find that information as what I have found so far was not super useful. In short, for the newer employee badges, are there some secret handshake pieces that flipper can't copy? Stuff around the house worked flawlessly, but the moment I tried to play with employee card, I got, um, mixed results.
- archgoon 2y ago
  Step 1 of reverse engineering anything: Figure out the make and model of the thing. ;) "Employee badges" can be implemented in a number of ways, from simple broadcasted rfids down to having secret challenge responses that aren't breakable without going down the jlsca route since the secret is on the device and never leaves it. So, step 1: figure out what exactly the model your 'employee badge' is using and what protocol it uses. There's probably some marking on it that should give you the manufactuerer at least.
- kweks 2y ago
  CEO of Lab401.com / Flipper Distributor / RFID geek. One of the best resources is probably the Discord channels. There is the official channel, and the non-official (for non-official firmware). YMMV, but the non-official seems to be more active. The Flipper is "somewhat underpowered" in terms of hardware for RFID, or specifically 13.56MHz, but makes up for it in a very active development community. "Access badges" is a fairly vast blanket term. Anything that's not an exhaustive, lengthy breakdown will be inherently over-generalised, but here we go: 125KHz: Low Frequency: _usually_ cards with "just" an ID or very limited memory. _Usually_ much simpler technology. _Usually_ without security, and much easier to copy. There are multiple encoding and modulation methods in this family, almost all of which are encompassed in a (fairly amazing) tag that can emulate them all - meaning they can be cloned easily : the T5577 chipset. There's much more penetration of these chipsets in non-EU markets (US, Canada, etc). Key brands and tags: HID Prox, EM4XXX, Hitag, etc. The FlipperZero handles most / if not all of these very well (read / save / emulate / write). High-Frequency tags (13.56MHz) : encompasses multiple ISO Standards : 14443-A/B/C (lots of access cards), also ISO15693 (Slightly Longer read range, more industrial tags, ski-passes, etc), and EMV (Payment Cards) among others. There are many sub-protocols and implementations of these higher level standards. But these can be generalised as : small memory units / computing units on a chip. As such : larger functionality, and various security. The most well-known family is probably MIFARE (1K/4K Classic..). Chances are, if you've got one somewhere. Encryption is totally broken. Ultralight / NTAG: Cheaper, no / not much security (password + signatures on some tags, and counters). Typically used for ticketing etc. These are handled in Flipper. Other implementations: DESFIRE: Uncracked. iCLASS (Commercial Access Control - iCLASS SE / ELITE / SEOS ..). Can be cloned, or suffer from downgrade attacks. Not handled by Flipper by default. The Flipper has a fundamental 'flaw' with high-frequency tags: it can't handle emulation on chip, and its clock isn't evenly divisible by 13.56MHz, so emulation and some functions are always going to be limited. With that said, the 13.56MHz stack is always improving - the community has done amazing things. Likewise, cracking (typically: MIFARE) is CPU / memory intensive. The Flipper can limp through some implementations, and can team up with a PC for others. However, more specialised devices (Proxmark, iCopy-X) pick up where the Flipper leaves off. In summary, it's a very useful tool for RFID (LF + HF) - can handle most LF operations, and quite a few HF operations - before you have to reach for much more expensive hardware (Proxmark : ~300 EU). Some people to check out on YT: https://www.youtube.com/@TalkingSasquach https://www.youtube.com/@TalkingSasquach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3xlAm_tdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3xlAm_tdo Feel free to reach out for more questions.
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
What are people doing with the Flipper? It seems neat, but I fear I would get one and then forever leave it in a drawer having never done anything real with the device.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bangaladore 2y ago
  For 99.99% of buyers, it's a toy. It will be played with briefly and discussed online for more. For a tiny portion there is a legitimate use, however I think its highly unlikely there isn't something that does that use for cheaper, and better.
- edm0nd 2y ago
  Mainly having fun w the IR blaster and also for NFC/RFID things.
- supportengineer 2y ago
  Tried to read my dog chip but couldn't find it.
  - kej 2y ago
    It can take a lot of slowly moving the flipper around to get it to read a pet chip. Definitely not as straightforward as scanning your office's access card.
  - amorfusblob 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    I'm sure your dog will come back when hungry.
- a12k 2y ago
  I was really excited to get mine! It is neat. I got it and it has been in my drawer almost exclusively. I have done exactly two things with mine: * Opened my friend's Tesla battery charge hatch from a distance for fun (it closes again on its own after maybe 30 seconds) * Recorded a lamp's IR remote on/off/up/down toggles and used the Flipper to turn on the lamp, rather than using the IR remote, to try to debug whether the remote was going bad or if there was a problem with the lamp (it was the lamp itself) And I tried, unsuccessfully, to: * Read my dog's microchip data Otherwise, I haven't found any use for it. I really wanted to like it. I did a search to see if there was anything interesting to do with it that I was missing, and basically it's what I did (or failed to do) above. Some people also use it to change TV channels at restaurants as a prank it looks like.
radicalbyte 2y ago
I spent a lot of time trying to get it to detect signals from my remote-controlled sunblind, only it turns out that it doesn't support the frequency at least out of the box.
- throitallaway 2y ago
  Out of the box they are locked down to prevent transmission on certain frequencies for legal reasons. This is trivial to get around with a firmware flash.
  - radicalbyte 2y ago
    Oh sweet, thanks for the tip. Time to go digging :-)
    - tkems 2y ago
      I would check out the Unleashed firmware [1]. I've had pretty good luck with it so far. [1] https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware
MaggieL 2y ago
Yes. The current Flipper app store has an app that spams from a library of known codes until you tell it to stop LadyAda of Adafruit got her start with such a device.

Has anyone tried to run Micropython on the Flipper Zero? I'm using Micropython on my ESPs, but not in the Flipper Zero. With the new Firmware 1.0 you can also use JavaScript. Now the question is: what's easier/better for own plugins/apps? Micropython, Javascript or the native Flipper language?

therealfiona 2y ago
Isn't native C/C++? I'd expect C to run the best due to it being compiled. JS is pretty quick, but we're talking a microcontroller, so any speed you can pickup by reducing computation cycles is a win. Easiest/better is using what you already know as that'll provide the best speed to MVP. If it's too slow in Python/JS, but it seems like a useful thing, it's probably worth rolling up your sleeves and learning some C. At least enough to build a python library.
- markb139 2y ago
  From my experience on the Raspberry Pi rp2040, adding C code to a micropython build is very straightforward

jordigh 2y ago

This makes me long for the days of RockBox on Sansa Clip devices. https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipzip/rockbox-buildch12.html#x15-20000012.1.12 https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipz...

forgotacc240419 2y ago
Still using one daily
- jordigh 2y ago
  Which model? My Sansa Clips all died in various ways. Maybe I was too rough on them.
  - forgotacc240419 2y ago
    I've a few backups but I've only destroyed one of them (somehow fried the board soldering the headphone jack back down). They're fairly durable other than the headphone jack and the clip from what I've seen
sikhnerd 2y ago
I 100% miss the golden age of running RockBox on my iriver h120. Such an amazing firmware (and hardware)
namuol 2y ago
You can get “broken” ones on EBay pretty cheap. Be careful prying them open though - there’s no aftermarket shells unfortunately. I spent a weekend not long ago upgrading a broken Sansa Clip+ with a new battery, RockBox, and a USB-C port - first one with USB-C AFAIK. Oh and I replaced all the SMD buttons too while I was at it. I’m very happy with how it turned out! I only wish I knew how to do something more advanced like adding Bluetooth audio capability that doesn’t just hook into the DAC output and sound terrible.
- forgotacc240419 2y ago
  How was the usb c installation? Feels a bit beyond my soldering skills. I mainly use a zip but I put together a very slim mini to c cable for my Clip+ that does the job. Don't suppose you could tell me the name of the part they use for the headphone jack? I can find loads that look almost right but never the exact model
  - namuol 2y ago
    It was pretty intense, but mostly because I’m clumsy and didn’t plan anything. There’s not a lot of room on the board, so I soldered 0402 resistors directly to the pins on the port to allow it to work with modern PD chargers, and I had to expose a few traces so I could jump the pins since it didn’t align with the mini usb pads. Fortunately I was able to solder its feet to the main structural pads and it’s a good firm connection. I bought an assorted usb-c port kit from Amazon with something like 10 varieties and chose the port that best fit onto the board. I needed to bend the legs a bit but it worked. I used a digital microscope and fine solder tips. There’s no “easy” way to do this that I’m aware of, especially since I chose low melt solder to avoid melting the port’s plastic, which meant the jumper wire conducted enough heat to desolder the other connection if I didn’t work quickly! This experience had me wondering if I could design a little thin adapter pcb to make the process less error prone, but I’ve never done anything like that before… What’s wrong with your audio port? To find a replacement you might want to get some cheap calipers and measure a bunch of stuff to compare with components on digikey/mouser/aliexpress. Or you may just be able to repair it instead of replacing it. Could be it just needs its pins reflowed to the board if you haven’t tried that yet. I hope you can fix it - good luck!

oulipo 2y ago

Is there a comparison of the memory footprint of each VM? and whether there are guarantees with memory allocation / crash robustness etc ?

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

Hah, talk about good timing. I just got my flipper:D I have a weird related question and I am not looking for a full answer, but rather on what/where would be a good resource to find that information as what I have found so far was not super useful. In short, for the newer employee badges, are there some secret handshake pieces that flipper can't copy? Stuff around the house worked flawlessly, but the moment I tried to play with employee card, I got, um, mixed results.

archgoon 2y ago
Step 1 of reverse engineering anything: Figure out the make and model of the thing. ;) "Employee badges" can be implemented in a number of ways, from simple broadcasted rfids down to having secret challenge responses that aren't breakable without going down the jlsca route since the secret is on the device and never leaves it. So, step 1: figure out what exactly the model your 'employee badge' is using and what protocol it uses. There's probably some marking on it that should give you the manufactuerer at least.
kweks 2y ago
CEO of Lab401.com / Flipper Distributor / RFID geek. One of the best resources is probably the Discord channels. There is the official channel, and the non-official (for non-official firmware). YMMV, but the non-official seems to be more active. The Flipper is "somewhat underpowered" in terms of hardware for RFID, or specifically 13.56MHz, but makes up for it in a very active development community. "Access badges" is a fairly vast blanket term. Anything that's not an exhaustive, lengthy breakdown will be inherently over-generalised, but here we go: 125KHz: Low Frequency: _usually_ cards with "just" an ID or very limited memory. _Usually_ much simpler technology. _Usually_ without security, and much easier to copy. There are multiple encoding and modulation methods in this family, almost all of which are encompassed in a (fairly amazing) tag that can emulate them all - meaning they can be cloned easily : the T5577 chipset. There's much more penetration of these chipsets in non-EU markets (US, Canada, etc). Key brands and tags: HID Prox, EM4XXX, Hitag, etc. The FlipperZero handles most / if not all of these very well (read / save / emulate / write). High-Frequency tags (13.56MHz) : encompasses multiple ISO Standards : 14443-A/B/C (lots of access cards), also ISO15693 (Slightly Longer read range, more industrial tags, ski-passes, etc), and EMV (Payment Cards) among others. There are many sub-protocols and implementations of these higher level standards. But these can be generalised as : small memory units / computing units on a chip. As such : larger functionality, and various security. The most well-known family is probably MIFARE (1K/4K Classic..). Chances are, if you've got one somewhere. Encryption is totally broken. Ultralight / NTAG: Cheaper, no / not much security (password + signatures on some tags, and counters). Typically used for ticketing etc. These are handled in Flipper. Other implementations: DESFIRE: Uncracked. iCLASS (Commercial Access Control - iCLASS SE / ELITE / SEOS ..). Can be cloned, or suffer from downgrade attacks. Not handled by Flipper by default. The Flipper has a fundamental 'flaw' with high-frequency tags: it can't handle emulation on chip, and its clock isn't evenly divisible by 13.56MHz, so emulation and some functions are always going to be limited. With that said, the 13.56MHz stack is always improving - the community has done amazing things. Likewise, cracking (typically: MIFARE) is CPU / memory intensive. The Flipper can limp through some implementations, and can team up with a PC for others. However, more specialised devices (Proxmark, iCopy-X) pick up where the Flipper leaves off. In summary, it's a very useful tool for RFID (LF + HF) - can handle most LF operations, and quite a few HF operations - before you have to reach for much more expensive hardware (Proxmark : ~300 EU). Some people to check out on YT: https://www.youtube.com/@TalkingSasquach https://www.youtube.com/@TalkingSasquach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3xlAm_tdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF3xlAm_tdo Feel free to reach out for more questions.

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago

What are people doing with the Flipper? It seems neat, but I fear I would get one and then forever leave it in a drawer having never done anything real with the device.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bangaladore 2y ago
For 99.99% of buyers, it's a toy. It will be played with briefly and discussed online for more. For a tiny portion there is a legitimate use, however I think its highly unlikely there isn't something that does that use for cheaper, and better.
edm0nd 2y ago
Mainly having fun w the IR blaster and also for NFC/RFID things.
supportengineer 2y ago
Tried to read my dog chip but couldn't find it.
- kej 2y ago
  It can take a lot of slowly moving the flipper around to get it to read a pet chip. Definitely not as straightforward as scanning your office's access card.
- amorfusblob 2y ago
  [flagged]
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  I'm sure your dog will come back when hungry.
a12k 2y ago
I was really excited to get mine! It is neat. I got it and it has been in my drawer almost exclusively. I have done exactly two things with mine: * Opened my friend's Tesla battery charge hatch from a distance for fun (it closes again on its own after maybe 30 seconds) * Recorded a lamp's IR remote on/off/up/down toggles and used the Flipper to turn on the lamp, rather than using the IR remote, to try to debug whether the remote was going bad or if there was a problem with the lamp (it was the lamp itself) And I tried, unsuccessfully, to: * Read my dog's microchip data Otherwise, I haven't found any use for it. I really wanted to like it. I did a search to see if there was anything interesting to do with it that I was missing, and basically it's what I did (or failed to do) above. Some people also use it to change TV channels at restaurants as a prank it looks like.

radicalbyte 2y ago

I spent a lot of time trying to get it to detect signals from my remote-controlled sunblind, only it turns out that it doesn't support the frequency at least out of the box.

throitallaway 2y ago
Out of the box they are locked down to prevent transmission on certain frequencies for legal reasons. This is trivial to get around with a firmware flash.
- radicalbyte 2y ago
  Oh sweet, thanks for the tip. Time to go digging :-)
  - tkems 2y ago
    I would check out the Unleashed firmware [1]. I've had pretty good luck with it so far. [1] https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware

MaggieL 2y ago

Yes. The current Flipper app store has an app that spams from a library of known codes until you tell it to stop LadyAda of Adafruit got her start with such a device.