10 ms·

How a scientist is pushing to supersize research into ultra-processed foods

70 points by jyunwai 2y ago

hooverd 2y ago
What defines an "ultra-processed" food? Also, there are some amazing pictures in this article.
- l5870uoo9y 2y ago
  You can use the Nova classification[0] which has 4 groupings. First 3 are nutritionally harmless, the fourth is highly processed. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification
  - RevEng 2y ago
    You inserted a dichotomy that isn't present in that article. The article explicitly points out that it does not say anything about the nutritional value. It does not say that the first three are nutritionally harmless, nor does it say the implied opposite that ultra processed foods are nutritionally harmful.
    - schmidtleonard 2y ago
      Yes, and while there's a correlation that's worth noting, it really bugs me when people don't separate the concepts of processed vs unhealthy. If you refuse to tease these apart, you open up the door to marketing fruit smoothies and pizza and literal goddamn sucrose as health food on account of natural-ness or some inconsequential reduction in processing. I see this "health aesthetic" all over the place and conversations I overhear indicate that people go for it. This is not good and it's a direct consequence of fudging the distinction between processed and unhealthy.
  - Zigurd 2y ago
    I don't want to defend what's in those aisles of the grocery store I don't visit, but I have a problem with the definition. It amounts to a list of ick nobody should put in their mouth in any combination. The problem is that some of the supposed ick is marginal: Is a Pop Tart(tm) with a dyed HFC "berry" filling really, measurably, "worse" than a slice of toasted artisanal bread with farm to table butter and jam? You shouldn't eat either one in large quantities. One is obviously ickier, but, so? Whey protein vs tofu? One is in your favorite Hunan dish, the other is sold in tubs next to dubious supplements. But, so?
    - stemlord 2y ago
      Perhaps an urban myth but my general rule of thumb as a non-expert has been: more processed = more carcinogenic
    - l5870uoo9y 2y ago
      Roughly speaking, if you remove Nova class 4 you are back at mid-century eating habits and I doubt anybody would dare to claim that they weren't much healthier than today with 2/3 of US population being overweight. "Unhealthy" groceries still existed, but the quantities consumed were much smaller.
      - Avshalom 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#/media/File:Life_expectancy_by_world_region,_from_1770_to_2018.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#/media/File:Li...
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        > mid-century eating habits So pies made with lard, sugar, and served with whole-milk ice cream?
    - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
      pop Tart has literally tens of ingredients, toasted artisanal bread with butter and jam has at maximum 10, all natural. Seems quite obvious the diference.
  - aulin 2y ago
    Curious choice of mustard as main picture of the article. Dijon mustard has like 4 ingredients: mustard seeds, salt, vinegar and bisolfite. Among processed canned condiments it must be the healthiest one.
    - ufo 2y ago
      Dijon mustard is processed, not ultra-processed.
- Pine_Mushroom 2y ago
  Per the article: “made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact [unprocessed] foods.”
  - hooverd 2y ago
    Thanks, I missed that line.
  - brokensegue 2y ago
    So that includes cheese?
    - hirsin 2y ago
      Cheese is a processed food, class 3. "Cheese products" like Kraft and Velveeta are class four ultra processed given the additives and way it's broken down and reformed.
    - ziggyzecat 2y ago
      depends. DIY or that mid priced stuff from the supermarket?
l5870uoo9y 2y ago
It is interesting to think of just how massive a shift the food industry, supermarkets and consumers would have to undertake to cut out high-processed foods (supermarkets would have to empty majority of their shelves). And then additional strides would have to be made to be convert restaurants (not to mention school cantinas) into actually healthy dining places. I don't think a single burger place would survive such an assessment.
- akira2501 2y ago
  > supermarkets would have to empty majority of their shelves I doubt this. The supermarket I go to would be about 1/2 empty if they removed processed foods. The rest is still largely taken up by the deli, meat, produce, dairy, and fresh foods. None of these are highly processed. > And then additional strides would have to be made to be convert restaurants Chain restaurants that supply themselves exclusively from Sysco. Almost all other restaurants actually cook with mostly whole ingredients. > a single burger place Everything there can be a whole food except the bun and the beverage. You're presenting this is as if it's a huge challenge when in reality it barely would be.
RevEng 2y ago
I welcome some research in to this if only to put some credible evidence behind whether or to what extent processing of foods affects their nutritional value. I constantly see assertions that highly processed foods are killing us and causing obesity, but I've yet to see any credible evidence for it. Even reading the Nova classification, the scientific verbiage describing the ultra processed category could easily describe making egg noodles at home. Extrusion is how we get noodle shapes. Molds are how we get cakes and muffins. Emulsifiers are everywhere and are a common reason for adding egg to a recipe. Specific protein isolates less so, but we isolate compounds all the time when brewing and stewing. The only significant difference I see between group 3 and 4 is that they are spoken about in completely different registers that make one sound familiar and the other foreign. So please, put some sincere research behind this so we can finally get useful clarification on this subject.
- sabbaticaldev 2y ago
  this is processed food. Processed food is fine. Ultra-processed food is processed food put into a plastic bag, shipped far away to be consumed 6 months after it was produced.
  - maccard 2y ago
    So tinned, or frozen veg?
    - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
      if it is full of preservatives, yes. Obviously, just frozen vegetables isn’t ultra processed.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - bloaf 2y ago
        This is not at all obvious. Freezing veggies involves washing, cutting, and blanching processes and vegetables may be subjected to ultrasound during freezing to accelerate the process.
ziggyzecat 2y ago
Great to read someone wants to scale this! It would be amazing if the tech to test samples of anything edible could become a target of the DIY & Maker community. This has to be a citizen science effort. Production results vary. Just recently an acquaintance who owns a small coffee shop in a small town got a visit form the local public health administration telling him that they got a notice from a company that he purchased a product that is being called back due to xyz. We were all surprised that this system works so incredibly well. But in terms of health, there are just too many factors that impact individual bodies and brains while being barely relevant in samples of the general population. We need to build a database of human profiles whose health was impacted by something in their food. Of course, there's allergies, and nutritional coaches, and so on but those processes are incredibly long and people get lost and give up or often enough, nothing is found and the person is left to his or her own devices. I have a friend who reacts bad to some dairy products, whipped cream for example, but the intensity varies with the producer! And he tried some of the most expensive products and some are 'ok' while others produce pain. There must be traces of something that is simply not looked at when tested by food safety labs. And labs like that of the dude from the article are rare and cost a lot. A couple of weeks ago someone mentioned fertility rates and why some generations had worse ones than others. Not birth rates, fertility rates. Apparently there are periods in time where causes for worse fertility can't be deducted from research and economic data of the time. Microplastics and such didn't play that big of a role back then and the water, soil weren't even remotely as bad back then. Pre WW1 to post WW2. So I proposed it must be something that was in the food that nobody looked at. Might even be sabotage, who knows. So yeah, I really hope the Maker community can up the game a little and pave the way for more citizen science in food safety and in the research of how different compounds &/or combinations impact energy metabolisms.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
technotarek 2y ago
Tangential…Anyone from the HN community using Yuka app. (Scan barcodes to get info about dangerous additives and other health info about food and healthcare products.) I discovered it in France where it’s rather popular and continue to use it state side. Has changed a lot of my buying/consuming decisions. No affiliation.
iwanttocomment 2y ago
I really hate the notion of "ultra-processed" foods. The NOVA food classification system[1], which established the term, is loose and unscientific about what "ultra-processing" means, and different articles use the term interchangeably with different types of foods, many of which could barely be considered to be processed beyond what a home cook might do. For example, pictures of potato chips or bacon are often pictured and vilified as ultra-processed foods. The NOVA system describes these as "processed" (but not "ultra-processed") foods, and that's almost certainly the case. A home cook can make bacon by curing pork belly in salt and natural spices and then cooking it in a conventional fashion, or frying potato slices in oil and then salting them. Many bacons and potato chips list few ingredients beyond pork or potatoes, salt, and in the case of chips, oil. These can hardly be considered "ultra-processed", even if the American diet of cured and smoked meats may not be optimal for cardiovascular health. These are things people were eating for centuries, long before modern grocery stores and preparations. But even then, the NOVA system is obtuse. Ice cream is listed as an ultra-processed food, even as you can pick up Haagen Dazs vanilla at Walgreens with only "cream, milk, eggs, sugar and vanilla." You can certainly make a simulacrum of it of similar quality at home using the same ingredients and an ice cream maker. Is it "healthy"? Almost certainly no! Is it ultra-processed? Also, almost certainly no! Other "ultra-processed" foods according to NOVA are "sweetened and flavored yogurts including fruit yogurts" which again can be made at home using no artificial ingredients with... sugar and fruit, hardly ultra-processing. Chocolate milk is an ultra-processed food according to NOVA, consisting of... milk, cocoa and sugar, which again, you can certainly make at home and is not some sort of industrial concoction. We are all well aware of the issues with excessive sugar and salt in the diet, and this was established long before any of us were born. Everything you read about "ultra-processed foods" is junk science. There may well be certain preservatives or preparations that aren't good for us, but the classifications in place are total garbage, and don't point us to any actual risks beyond the natural ingredients we have all known to be problematic from time immemorial. [1] The NOVA classifications: https://ecuphysicians.ecu.edu/wp-content/pv-uploads/sites/78/2021/07/NOVA-Classification-Reference-Sheet.pdf https://ecuphysicians.ecu.edu/wp-content/pv-uploads/sites/78...
- akira2501 2y ago
  It's an example list. It's not exhaustive nor is it exclusive. The hint is in the paragraph preceeding that section: "Ultra-processed foods are industrial formulations made entirely or mostly from substances extracted from foods (oils, fats, sugar, starch, and proteins), derived from food constituents (hydrogenated fats and modified starch)" > Haagen Dazs vanilla at Walgreens with only "cream, milk, eggs, sugar and vanilla." Yes, that's an "ice cream" according to the FDA. The problem is the definition is so loose that any product with 10% milkfat or milkfat solids can be called ice cream. Which means that "ice cream" may or may not be highly processed. You'll need to examine the ingredients to know. Which is why Ben & Jerry's can't call themselves "all natural" anymore, because, they happily include many more industrial ingredients over your Hagen Dazz.
GeoAtreides 2y ago
ah yes, mention "ultra-processed foods" in the title and all of the comments are about the definition of ultra-processed foods and none about the article which maybe would be fine, if people made a modicum of effort and researched the definition. Instead everyone is playing word games "what about this, what about that", "does it mean cheese is ultraprocessed", and implying a vague coverage at the edges means the whole concept is worthless
99_00 2y ago
Smart. Cash in on the fad while you can.
BobbyTables2 2y ago
Compared to eating raw wheat, baked bread is an ultra-processed food…
doug_durham 2y ago
I find it interesting that a most of Vegan meat substitutes fall into the ultra-processed categories. It seems to be an issue across all diets.
calmbonsai 2y ago
I do think one day we’ll look back at the “best practices” of the processed foods industry as being fundamentally at odds with the best practices of nutritional ensemble signaling for our bodies.
naming_the_user 2y ago
UPF's in as much as they affect health and obesity rates are almost certainly just doing some combination of the following: People eating more calories because it's more calorie dense / easier to digest/eat People eating more because of things like umami (has no protein but seems like it might be protein) High GI foods causing blood sugar spikes Weird E-numbery ingredients that aren't well studied (e.g. are sweeteners actually healthy for human consumption as opposed to simply not causing acute issues) General lack of nutrition (e.g. if you live on bread and meat with no vegetables things gon get bad) etc. There seems to be a huge aversion in mainstream society to accepting the basic fact that calories in calories out works. It's used by millions and millions of athletes to hit weight classifications, to bulk and add muscle, to cut and reduce body fat, etc. It's about as proven as gravity. You cannot be fat as an average height person if you eat 2000 calories a day consistently. I really doubt that there is any magic here - based on the experience of everyone I know, the thin and fit people eat a certain diet and do certain exercises, the thin and semi-fat (e.g. powerlifter type) people eat a different diet and do certain exercises, and the fat people eat, well, they eat shit, they do not consciously think about what they are eating, in the same way that a well earning person living paycheck to paycheck doesn't have a budget.

70 points by jyunwai 2y ago

hooverd 2y ago

What defines an "ultra-processed" food? Also, there are some amazing pictures in this article.

l5870uoo9y 2y ago
You can use the Nova classification[0] which has 4 groupings. First 3 are nutritionally harmless, the fourth is highly processed. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification
- RevEng 2y ago
  You inserted a dichotomy that isn't present in that article. The article explicitly points out that it does not say anything about the nutritional value. It does not say that the first three are nutritionally harmless, nor does it say the implied opposite that ultra processed foods are nutritionally harmful.
  - schmidtleonard 2y ago
    Yes, and while there's a correlation that's worth noting, it really bugs me when people don't separate the concepts of processed vs unhealthy. If you refuse to tease these apart, you open up the door to marketing fruit smoothies and pizza and literal goddamn sucrose as health food on account of natural-ness or some inconsequential reduction in processing. I see this "health aesthetic" all over the place and conversations I overhear indicate that people go for it. This is not good and it's a direct consequence of fudging the distinction between processed and unhealthy.
- Zigurd 2y ago
  I don't want to defend what's in those aisles of the grocery store I don't visit, but I have a problem with the definition. It amounts to a list of ick nobody should put in their mouth in any combination. The problem is that some of the supposed ick is marginal: Is a Pop Tart(tm) with a dyed HFC "berry" filling really, measurably, "worse" than a slice of toasted artisanal bread with farm to table butter and jam? You shouldn't eat either one in large quantities. One is obviously ickier, but, so? Whey protein vs tofu? One is in your favorite Hunan dish, the other is sold in tubs next to dubious supplements. But, so?
  - stemlord 2y ago
    Perhaps an urban myth but my general rule of thumb as a non-expert has been: more processed = more carcinogenic
  - l5870uoo9y 2y ago
    Roughly speaking, if you remove Nova class 4 you are back at mid-century eating habits and I doubt anybody would dare to claim that they weren't much healthier than today with 2/3 of US population being overweight. "Unhealthy" groceries still existed, but the quantities consumed were much smaller.
    - Avshalom 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#/media/File:Life_expectancy_by_world_region,_from_1770_to_2018.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#/media/File:Li...
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      > mid-century eating habits So pies made with lard, sugar, and served with whole-milk ice cream?
  - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
    pop Tart has literally tens of ingredients, toasted artisanal bread with butter and jam has at maximum 10, all natural. Seems quite obvious the diference.
- aulin 2y ago
  Curious choice of mustard as main picture of the article. Dijon mustard has like 4 ingredients: mustard seeds, salt, vinegar and bisolfite. Among processed canned condiments it must be the healthiest one.
  - ufo 2y ago
    Dijon mustard is processed, not ultra-processed.
Pine_Mushroom 2y ago
Per the article: “made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact [unprocessed] foods.”
- hooverd 2y ago
  Thanks, I missed that line.
- brokensegue 2y ago
  So that includes cheese?
  - hirsin 2y ago
    Cheese is a processed food, class 3. "Cheese products" like Kraft and Velveeta are class four ultra processed given the additives and way it's broken down and reformed.
  - ziggyzecat 2y ago
    depends. DIY or that mid priced stuff from the supermarket?

l5870uoo9y 2y ago

It is interesting to think of just how massive a shift the food industry, supermarkets and consumers would have to undertake to cut out high-processed foods (supermarkets would have to empty majority of their shelves). And then additional strides would have to be made to be convert restaurants (not to mention school cantinas) into actually healthy dining places. I don't think a single burger place would survive such an assessment.

akira2501 2y ago
> supermarkets would have to empty majority of their shelves I doubt this. The supermarket I go to would be about 1/2 empty if they removed processed foods. The rest is still largely taken up by the deli, meat, produce, dairy, and fresh foods. None of these are highly processed. > And then additional strides would have to be made to be convert restaurants Chain restaurants that supply themselves exclusively from Sysco. Almost all other restaurants actually cook with mostly whole ingredients. > a single burger place Everything there can be a whole food except the bun and the beverage. You're presenting this is as if it's a huge challenge when in reality it barely would be.

RevEng 2y ago

I welcome some research in to this if only to put some credible evidence behind whether or to what extent processing of foods affects their nutritional value. I constantly see assertions that highly processed foods are killing us and causing obesity, but I've yet to see any credible evidence for it. Even reading the Nova classification, the scientific verbiage describing the ultra processed category could easily describe making egg noodles at home. Extrusion is how we get noodle shapes. Molds are how we get cakes and muffins. Emulsifiers are everywhere and are a common reason for adding egg to a recipe. Specific protein isolates less so, but we isolate compounds all the time when brewing and stewing. The only significant difference I see between group 3 and 4 is that they are spoken about in completely different registers that make one sound familiar and the other foreign. So please, put some sincere research behind this so we can finally get useful clarification on this subject.

sabbaticaldev 2y ago
this is processed food. Processed food is fine. Ultra-processed food is processed food put into a plastic bag, shipped far away to be consumed 6 months after it was produced.
- maccard 2y ago
  So tinned, or frozen veg?
  - sabbaticaldev 2y ago
    if it is full of preservatives, yes. Obviously, just frozen vegetables isn’t ultra processed.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bloaf 2y ago
      This is not at all obvious. Freezing veggies involves washing, cutting, and blanching processes and vegetables may be subjected to ultrasound during freezing to accelerate the process.

ziggyzecat 2y ago

Great to read someone wants to scale this! It would be amazing if the tech to test samples of anything edible could become a target of the DIY & Maker community. This has to be a citizen science effort. Production results vary. Just recently an acquaintance who owns a small coffee shop in a small town got a visit form the local public health administration telling him that they got a notice from a company that he purchased a product that is being called back due to xyz. We were all surprised that this system works so incredibly well. But in terms of health, there are just too many factors that impact individual bodies and brains while being barely relevant in samples of the general population. We need to build a database of human profiles whose health was impacted by something in their food. Of course, there's allergies, and nutritional coaches, and so on but those processes are incredibly long and people get lost and give up or often enough, nothing is found and the person is left to his or her own devices. I have a friend who reacts bad to some dairy products, whipped cream for example, but the intensity varies with the producer! And he tried some of the most expensive products and some are 'ok' while others produce pain. There must be traces of something that is simply not looked at when tested by food safety labs. And labs like that of the dude from the article are rare and cost a lot. A couple of weeks ago someone mentioned fertility rates and why some generations had worse ones than others. Not birth rates, fertility rates. Apparently there are periods in time where causes for worse fertility can't be deducted from research and economic data of the time. Microplastics and such didn't play that big of a role back then and the water, soil weren't even remotely as bad back then. Pre WW1 to post WW2. So I proposed it must be something that was in the food that nobody looked at. Might even be sabotage, who knows. So yeah, I really hope the Maker community can up the game a little and pave the way for more citizen science in food safety and in the research of how different compounds &/or combinations impact energy metabolisms.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

technotarek 2y ago

Tangential…Anyone from the HN community using Yuka app. (Scan barcodes to get info about dangerous additives and other health info about food and healthcare products.) I discovered it in France where it’s rather popular and continue to use it state side. Has changed a lot of my buying/consuming decisions. No affiliation.

iwanttocomment 2y ago

I really hate the notion of "ultra-processed" foods. The NOVA food classification system[1], which established the term, is loose and unscientific about what "ultra-processing" means, and different articles use the term interchangeably with different types of foods, many of which could barely be considered to be processed beyond what a home cook might do. For example, pictures of potato chips or bacon are often pictured and vilified as ultra-processed foods. The NOVA system describes these as "processed" (but not "ultra-processed") foods, and that's almost certainly the case. A home cook can make bacon by curing pork belly in salt and natural spices and then cooking it in a conventional fashion, or frying potato slices in oil and then salting them. Many bacons and potato chips list few ingredients beyond pork or potatoes, salt, and in the case of chips, oil. These can hardly be considered "ultra-processed", even if the American diet of cured and smoked meats may not be optimal for cardiovascular health. These are things people were eating for centuries, long before modern grocery stores and preparations. But even then, the NOVA system is obtuse. Ice cream is listed as an ultra-processed food, even as you can pick up Haagen Dazs vanilla at Walgreens with only "cream, milk, eggs, sugar and vanilla." You can certainly make a simulacrum of it of similar quality at home using the same ingredients and an ice cream maker. Is it "healthy"? Almost certainly no! Is it ultra-processed? Also, almost certainly no! Other "ultra-processed" foods according to NOVA are "sweetened and flavored yogurts including fruit yogurts" which again can be made at home using no artificial ingredients with... sugar and fruit, hardly ultra-processing. Chocolate milk is an ultra-processed food according to NOVA, consisting of... milk, cocoa and sugar, which again, you can certainly make at home and is not some sort of industrial concoction. We are all well aware of the issues with excessive sugar and salt in the diet, and this was established long before any of us were born. Everything you read about "ultra-processed foods" is junk science. There may well be certain preservatives or preparations that aren't good for us, but the classifications in place are total garbage, and don't point us to any actual risks beyond the natural ingredients we have all known to be problematic from time immemorial. [1] The NOVA classifications: https://ecuphysicians.ecu.edu/wp-content/pv-uploads/sites/78/2021/07/NOVA-Classification-Reference-Sheet.pdf https://ecuphysicians.ecu.edu/wp-content/pv-uploads/sites/78...

akira2501 2y ago
It's an example list. It's not exhaustive nor is it exclusive. The hint is in the paragraph preceeding that section: "Ultra-processed foods are industrial formulations made entirely or mostly from substances extracted from foods (oils, fats, sugar, starch, and proteins), derived from food constituents (hydrogenated fats and modified starch)" > Haagen Dazs vanilla at Walgreens with only "cream, milk, eggs, sugar and vanilla." Yes, that's an "ice cream" according to the FDA. The problem is the definition is so loose that any product with 10% milkfat or milkfat solids can be called ice cream. Which means that "ice cream" may or may not be highly processed. You'll need to examine the ingredients to know. Which is why Ben & Jerry's can't call themselves "all natural" anymore, because, they happily include many more industrial ingredients over your Hagen Dazz.

GeoAtreides 2y ago

ah yes, mention "ultra-processed foods" in the title and all of the comments are about the definition of ultra-processed foods and none about the article which maybe would be fine, if people made a modicum of effort and researched the definition. Instead everyone is playing word games "what about this, what about that", "does it mean cheese is ultraprocessed", and implying a vague coverage at the edges means the whole concept is worthless

99_00 2y ago

Smart. Cash in on the fad while you can.

BobbyTables2 2y ago

Compared to eating raw wheat, baked bread is an ultra-processed food…

doug_durham 2y ago

I find it interesting that a most of Vegan meat substitutes fall into the ultra-processed categories. It seems to be an issue across all diets.

calmbonsai 2y ago

I do think one day we’ll look back at the “best practices” of the processed foods industry as being fundamentally at odds with the best practices of nutritional ensemble signaling for our bodies.

naming_the_user 2y ago

UPF's in as much as they affect health and obesity rates are almost certainly just doing some combination of the following: People eating more calories because it's more calorie dense / easier to digest/eat People eating more because of things like umami (has no protein but seems like it might be protein) High GI foods causing blood sugar spikes Weird E-numbery ingredients that aren't well studied (e.g. are sweeteners actually healthy for human consumption as opposed to simply not causing acute issues) General lack of nutrition (e.g. if you live on bread and meat with no vegetables things gon get bad) etc. There seems to be a huge aversion in mainstream society to accepting the basic fact that calories in calories out works. It's used by millions and millions of athletes to hit weight classifications, to bulk and add muscle, to cut and reduce body fat, etc. It's about as proven as gravity. You cannot be fat as an average height person if you eat 2000 calories a day consistently. I really doubt that there is any magic here - based on the experience of everyone I know, the thin and fit people eat a certain diet and do certain exercises, the thin and semi-fat (e.g. powerlifter type) people eat a different diet and do certain exercises, and the fat people eat, well, they eat shit, they do not consciously think about what they are eating, in the same way that a well earning person living paycheck to paycheck doesn't have a budget.