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I have no love for Tesla and I won't buy one as long as Elon Musk owns it. But alas I think most major automakers are massively dropping the ball on EVs. I'm p

I have no love for Tesla and I won't buy one as long as Elon Musk owns it. But alas I think most major automakers are massively dropping the ball on EVs. I'm particularly disappointed in Toyota and Honda - I really expected better from them. Where's the Corolla EV or the Civic EV? How about a nice little hatchback? Nope. Everyone's building crossovers, compact SUVs, fuckin' pickup trucks - it's a complete clownshow.

jtriangle 2y ago
The issue is, if you want to make an EV cheap enough to sit in the Civic/Carolla market, it still ends up being useless for most people because you can't afford to equip it with a large battery. Not to mention the only way an EV makes sense is if you can charge it with your own utility power, having to go and sit at a charger for 30+ minutes isn't, and will never be, tenable for most people. Think about who's buying Civics and Corollas. It's apartment dwellers mostly, and they don't have chargers, nor can they. Maybe their parking lot has chargers, and those will be expensive, and they could use public chargers, which are also expensive, but you're talking basically making the cost 1:1 with a gas car at that point, but less convenient, less range, heavier, and all that assumes you can even sell it in that price bracket. It simply makes no sense for the majority of consumers. You'd have to invert the gas/electric pricing, which, given current trends, isn't likely to happen. Now will that always be the case? Very likely not, eventually we'll have cheap power, eventually enough people will be driving EV's that gasoline loses its scale advantage. Until then, the EV market will stay mid-high end, and that means crossovers/suv's/trucks/etc. Some people view that as dreadfully bad, myself, I'm happy that EV's are being developed and sold. By the time the world is ready for them, they're going to be very, very good, and that's the point which I'll be buying one. That is assuming I don't nab myself a late 90's ford ranger with a blown motor and build my own EV first.
SoftTalker 2y ago
Americans in the majority prefer pickup trucks, SUVs and crossovers. Ford entirely quit making sedans and hatchbacks a few years ago, at least for North America.
- triceratops 2y ago
  How did Tesla become the most valuable carmarker in the world making mostly sedans?
  - rendang 2y ago
    The Model Y is Tesla's best selling car and has been for a while
    - triceratops 2y ago
      Tesla combines Model 3 and Model Y sales when they report results, so we don't actually know that. According to estimates*, and my own eyes, more Model 3s are sold than Model Ys. * 2021 is the last year for which Wikipedia has estimates for both vehicles. The Model 3 sold over 1m, the Model Y around 400k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y#Sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y#Sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
      - rendang 2y ago
        Right but some countries (incl China) have explicit registration data so these estimates are not a shot in the dark. From Jose Pontes' article where the Wikipedia Y estimates came from, there were 530k 3s sold and 1.2M Ys sold https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/05/world-ev-sales-report-tesla-model-y-is-the-best-selling-model-in-the-world/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/05/world-ev-sales-report-t...
      - rendang 2y ago
        Your figure for 2021 Model3 Sales is actually 3+Y btw
  - katbyte 2y ago
    Consistently making things up/lying to boost the stock price
  - dehrmann 2y ago
hedora 2y ago
One thing that’s frustrating is that everyone is converging to a few form factors instead of trying to fill each other’s gaps. There aren’t really any sporty things, and even the F-150 electric is only barely at 150-class specs (the bed is tiny). Also, the number of boneheaded moves by the legacy car companies is astounding. Ford just pushed their roadmap out a few years. Stellantis has nothing(?). Chevy dropped the ball by discontinuing their best model and then deciding not to pursue the “people that own cell phones” market segment. I think the list of top ten global automakers will be very different in ten years. These companies seem likely to be on it (no particular order), based on current lineups of native EV platforms: Tesla, Rivian, Volvo (polestar), Kia, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, and probably Ford, despite the delays. I’m leaving Genesis and Vinfast off my US-centric list, but they’re certainly contenders.
- dehrmann 2y ago
  No BYD?
  - hedora 2y ago
    That’s definitely an oversight on my part.
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  > and then deciding not to pursue the “people that own cell phones” market segment. How would one even do that?
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    I suspect, without knowing the actual situation with Chevy, that this is a somewhat oblique reference to some grievance with their approach to Android Auto/CarPlay (or lack there of).
- fragmede 2y ago
  It's worth noting that the F150 Lightning has a cavernous frunk, so that 5.5' bed turns out to be just fine, depending on your use case.
lotsofpulp 2y ago
The extra up front cost and greater long term depreciation of a Corolla EV or civic EV is not worth it compared to a gas hybrid car for anyone that drives 10k miles per year, maybe even 15k miles per year. Toyota’s gas hybrid tech has decades of track record that they will hold their value.
- triceratops 2y ago
  A Corolla or Civic EV implies a relatively cheap, really good quality, reliable car that holds its value. Not literally those bodies on an electric platform, but something that embodies those characteristics in an electric vehicle. I guess I used to have faith that if anyone could crack that problem, it would be the two Japanese giants.
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    The performance and cost of batteries is still changing fast enough that it doesn't make all that much sense for them to be dipping their toe in the water. They are investing in battery tech and are pretty likely to launch good vehicles when batteries that have good range and charge fast hit some target price point. The market for electric vehicles that cost quite a bit more than similar size vehicles exists, but it's not like people that are shopping on a budget are going to choose based on performance and prestige, they are going to choose based on price, and conventional vehicles can still be built for lower costs.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      I hope you're right they're simply biding their time.
tayo42 2y ago
Is it worth making a corolla electric right now? It's a budget car. New costs 22k Rav 4 gas starts at 28k, and Rav 4 prime is 43k,so 15k more If your going to buy a 37k electric sedan, with that budget your probably not looking at a corolla anymore?

jtriangle 2y ago

The issue is, if you want to make an EV cheap enough to sit in the Civic/Carolla market, it still ends up being useless for most people because you can't afford to equip it with a large battery. Not to mention the only way an EV makes sense is if you can charge it with your own utility power, having to go and sit at a charger for 30+ minutes isn't, and will never be, tenable for most people. Think about who's buying Civics and Corollas. It's apartment dwellers mostly, and they don't have chargers, nor can they. Maybe their parking lot has chargers, and those will be expensive, and they could use public chargers, which are also expensive, but you're talking basically making the cost 1:1 with a gas car at that point, but less convenient, less range, heavier, and all that assumes you can even sell it in that price bracket. It simply makes no sense for the majority of consumers. You'd have to invert the gas/electric pricing, which, given current trends, isn't likely to happen. Now will that always be the case? Very likely not, eventually we'll have cheap power, eventually enough people will be driving EV's that gasoline loses its scale advantage. Until then, the EV market will stay mid-high end, and that means crossovers/suv's/trucks/etc. Some people view that as dreadfully bad, myself, I'm happy that EV's are being developed and sold. By the time the world is ready for them, they're going to be very, very good, and that's the point which I'll be buying one. That is assuming I don't nab myself a late 90's ford ranger with a blown motor and build my own EV first.

SoftTalker 2y ago

Americans in the majority prefer pickup trucks, SUVs and crossovers. Ford entirely quit making sedans and hatchbacks a few years ago, at least for North America.

triceratops 2y ago
How did Tesla become the most valuable carmarker in the world making mostly sedans?
- rendang 2y ago
  The Model Y is Tesla's best selling car and has been for a while
  - triceratops 2y ago
    Tesla combines Model 3 and Model Y sales when they report results, so we don't actually know that. According to estimates*, and my own eyes, more Model 3s are sold than Model Ys. * 2021 is the last year for which Wikipedia has estimates for both vehicles. The Model 3 sold over 1m, the Model Y around 400k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y#Sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y#Sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
    - rendang 2y ago
      Right but some countries (incl China) have explicit registration data so these estimates are not a shot in the dark. From Jose Pontes' article where the Wikipedia Y estimates came from, there were 530k 3s sold and 1.2M Ys sold https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/05/world-ev-sales-report-tesla-model-y-is-the-best-selling-model-in-the-world/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/05/world-ev-sales-report-t...
    - rendang 2y ago
      Your figure for 2021 Model3 Sales is actually 3+Y btw
- katbyte 2y ago
  Consistently making things up/lying to boost the stock price
- dehrmann 2y ago

hedora 2y ago

One thing that’s frustrating is that everyone is converging to a few form factors instead of trying to fill each other’s gaps. There aren’t really any sporty things, and even the F-150 electric is only barely at 150-class specs (the bed is tiny). Also, the number of boneheaded moves by the legacy car companies is astounding. Ford just pushed their roadmap out a few years. Stellantis has nothing(?). Chevy dropped the ball by discontinuing their best model and then deciding not to pursue the “people that own cell phones” market segment. I think the list of top ten global automakers will be very different in ten years. These companies seem likely to be on it (no particular order), based on current lineups of native EV platforms: Tesla, Rivian, Volvo (polestar), Kia, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, and probably Ford, despite the delays. I’m leaving Genesis and Vinfast off my US-centric list, but they’re certainly contenders.

dehrmann 2y ago
No BYD?
- hedora 2y ago
  That’s definitely an oversight on my part.
tbrownaw 2y ago
> and then deciding not to pursue the “people that own cell phones” market segment. How would one even do that?
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  I suspect, without knowing the actual situation with Chevy, that this is a somewhat oblique reference to some grievance with their approach to Android Auto/CarPlay (or lack there of).
fragmede 2y ago
It's worth noting that the F150 Lightning has a cavernous frunk, so that 5.5' bed turns out to be just fine, depending on your use case.

lotsofpulp 2y ago

The extra up front cost and greater long term depreciation of a Corolla EV or civic EV is not worth it compared to a gas hybrid car for anyone that drives 10k miles per year, maybe even 15k miles per year. Toyota’s gas hybrid tech has decades of track record that they will hold their value.

triceratops 2y ago
A Corolla or Civic EV implies a relatively cheap, really good quality, reliable car that holds its value. Not literally those bodies on an electric platform, but something that embodies those characteristics in an electric vehicle. I guess I used to have faith that if anyone could crack that problem, it would be the two Japanese giants.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  The performance and cost of batteries is still changing fast enough that it doesn't make all that much sense for them to be dipping their toe in the water. They are investing in battery tech and are pretty likely to launch good vehicles when batteries that have good range and charge fast hit some target price point. The market for electric vehicles that cost quite a bit more than similar size vehicles exists, but it's not like people that are shopping on a budget are going to choose based on performance and prestige, they are going to choose based on price, and conventional vehicles can still be built for lower costs.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    I hope you're right they're simply biding their time.

tayo42 2y ago

Is it worth making a corolla electric right now? It's a budget car. New costs 22k Rav 4 gas starts at 28k, and Rav 4 prime is 43k,so 15k more If your going to buy a 37k electric sedan, with that budget your probably not looking at a corolla anymore?