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We do need a land based GPS alternative. The consequences of losing GPS without a ground based backup in place are almost incalculable. Clearly it doesn't need

We do need a land based GPS alternative. The consequences of losing GPS without a ground based backup in place are almost incalculable. Clearly it doesn't need to be at 902-928 Mhz. [Edit/Brainstorming] I suggest we implement a 0.1% (time) tax on digital RF transmissions of all types, I.E. every second UTC, all Fixed Position transmitters send a 1 millisecond "National Positioning System" packet, with position and delay data with precision timing on all packetized systems using the public airwaves. We could use same system to distribute time signals. This allows implementation of a new public service with minimal cost to all concerned, and we don't have to steal anyone's bandwidth from other services.

aftbit 2y ago
Yeah, maybe something like LORAN? Or maybe quantum gyroscopes will shrink in cost and size to allow totally offline navigation without references beyond a known starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope
- mikewarot 2y ago
  If quantum gyroscopes were made practical, they wouldn't be sold to civilians due to ITAR, as it would make it far, far too easy to make drones that could reach out and strike Peking, Hanoi or Leningrad from here near Fort Dearborn.
  - aftbit 2y ago
    I think you'd have more problems with battery range than with navigation in that specific case, although certainly a cheap, reliable navigation system that works in GPS denied environments would be a huge boon for Ukraine right now. Perhaps the same tricks that are currently done to neuter civilian GPS could be applied. Although as I understand it, those are mainly intended to prevent you from making a cruise or ballistic missile from a box of parts by preventing high speed and high altitude service. Those are likely becoming insufficient in the era of drones, where you don't really need to go outside of civilian GPS approved envelope. Or maybe it will be like cheap IR cameras. The best cheap IR cameras are currently imported from China, because US companies are prevented from creating anything comparable for the civilian market by ITAR.
eternityforest 2y ago
They could just require it on buildings above a certain height. Create a new "I'm Here" protocol that just sends an ID, GPS, and whatever telemetry fields people might want, like weather data. Make them solar powered with LTO batteries that won't need maintenance for 30 years, and just mass produce one tiny transmitter unit. They could serve as something like Meshtastic nodes in an emergency.
xbar 2y ago
Consequences are incalculable. Likelihood is calculable.
Kirby64 2y ago
Do you know how many RF signals would be interrupted by a 1ms broadcast every second that covers every possible spectrum? A hint: most of them. Many protocols rely on exclusive access to the spectrum, and couldn’t possibly be synchronized well enough to have a constant 1ms pulse interrupt them.
- cornholio 2y ago
  OP mentioned packetized, not digital.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    All packetized traffic is digital. What’s your point? Regardless of the implementation, anything that would require all other traffic to back off (ie not transmit) every 1ms would break most wireless things.
    - playingalong 2y ago
      They said for 1 ms every second.
    - mikewarot 2y ago
      Everything is already packetized and queued before transmitting. It seems that there are existing timing synchronization frames[1] in 5G transmissions at present. It would only require adding additional metadata to make those useful for positioning and timing distribution. So, it might only be a few dozen packets/second in the worst case, for cell phone sites, etc. As far as consumer equipment, like WiFi routers, etc... those are unlicensed, and wouldn't be part of this proposed use. (Though I suppose someone could figure out how to do it with WiFi, etc) [1] https://howltestuffworks.blogspot.com/2019/10/5g-nr-synchronization-signalpbch-block.html https://howltestuffworks.blogspot.com/2019/10/5g-nr-synchron...
dylan604 2y ago
Couldn't they do it in a similar manner as all of the ad tracking stuff that places signals in frequencies out of human hearing ranges? By all types, do you mean my WiFi router too, or just the public broadcasters like TV/Radio? If you're considering commercial broadcast transmitters, there's a downside in that most markets have a central place that is ideal transmission tower location for that area. This means that each station's signal will be very close to each other making them essentially the same location. Smaller stations tend to pop up in different places than the "big boys", but they're also lower power.
- ddingus 2y ago
  Actually people can hear those. Not all people of course, but I am noticing artifacts in the vocals on some music remasters. Others have reported similar experiences. It is not a big impact. But it is one and I am not entirely sure we need that crap everywhere. We for sure don't need the kind of interruption proposed. It is a good thought with good intent, but the fact is RF use cases are not like network packets.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    I'm not sure how remasters with issues have anything to do with this. You're assuming based on my specific example that the tones would need to be in a range that a microphone on a device could hear. I was thinking that the extra data would be part of the broadcast signal vs the content signal where an antenna would pick it up vs a microphone. My original comment didn't really attempt to explain that though. After sleeping on it, I realize, this isn't an analog broadcast anymore so doubtful it could work with extra frequencies in the FM signal
    - ddingus 2y ago
      The older recordings are not encoded with the Arbitron type artifacts. New ones may be. When I compare new vs old, this comes up. Broadcasters put data in band and have done so for what? A decade now? You mentioned out of band tracking data. I am saying there is also in band data. Sorry to be unclear. It is perceptually encoded to ride along with the audio and intended to be inaudible. And it largely is! It is in band so that AD targeting can be done anywhere audio is played aloud. Say a radio station plays the old tune. It adds its signature to the audio stream which can then be picked up by someone using a tracking device at the local fair, for example. Adding it to the tunes themselves can do the same for someone using a boom box or some speaker and give some sense of play outside streaming counts, like where exactly are those streams being heard? Your local coffee place might be a likely candidate. I know the part about radio adding the artifacts is real and old news now. Pretty much all broadcast audio contains it. The artifacts I hear on some remasters sound a whole lot like those I began hearing on broadcast audio. And back then, I asked and was told nicely how it all worked. Pretty clever tech actually. I cannot always hear it. Usually, it has to be material I know well and have heard sans encoding. Or, a voice I know well from a time before encoding. It is just different enough to notice for me and some others I have talked with.
ac29 2y ago
> This allows implementation of a new public service with minimal cost to all concerned I work on private radio networks, and this would require replacing billions of dollars of hardware. Additionally, to be useful for positioning, these locations probably need survey-grade accuracy of their locations. I imagine they would also need higher quality timesources than they typically have (if they even have timesources at all).

aftbit 2y ago

Yeah, maybe something like LORAN? Or maybe quantum gyroscopes will shrink in cost and size to allow totally offline navigation without references beyond a known starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope

mikewarot 2y ago
If quantum gyroscopes were made practical, they wouldn't be sold to civilians due to ITAR, as it would make it far, far too easy to make drones that could reach out and strike Peking, Hanoi or Leningrad from here near Fort Dearborn.
- aftbit 2y ago
  I think you'd have more problems with battery range than with navigation in that specific case, although certainly a cheap, reliable navigation system that works in GPS denied environments would be a huge boon for Ukraine right now. Perhaps the same tricks that are currently done to neuter civilian GPS could be applied. Although as I understand it, those are mainly intended to prevent you from making a cruise or ballistic missile from a box of parts by preventing high speed and high altitude service. Those are likely becoming insufficient in the era of drones, where you don't really need to go outside of civilian GPS approved envelope. Or maybe it will be like cheap IR cameras. The best cheap IR cameras are currently imported from China, because US companies are prevented from creating anything comparable for the civilian market by ITAR.

eternityforest 2y ago

They could just require it on buildings above a certain height. Create a new "I'm Here" protocol that just sends an ID, GPS, and whatever telemetry fields people might want, like weather data. Make them solar powered with LTO batteries that won't need maintenance for 30 years, and just mass produce one tiny transmitter unit. They could serve as something like Meshtastic nodes in an emergency.

xbar 2y ago

Consequences are incalculable. Likelihood is calculable.

Kirby64 2y ago

Do you know how many RF signals would be interrupted by a 1ms broadcast every second that covers every possible spectrum? A hint: most of them. Many protocols rely on exclusive access to the spectrum, and couldn’t possibly be synchronized well enough to have a constant 1ms pulse interrupt them.

cornholio 2y ago
OP mentioned packetized, not digital.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  All packetized traffic is digital. What’s your point? Regardless of the implementation, anything that would require all other traffic to back off (ie not transmit) every 1ms would break most wireless things.
  - playingalong 2y ago
    They said for 1 ms every second.
  - mikewarot 2y ago
    Everything is already packetized and queued before transmitting. It seems that there are existing timing synchronization frames[1] in 5G transmissions at present. It would only require adding additional metadata to make those useful for positioning and timing distribution. So, it might only be a few dozen packets/second in the worst case, for cell phone sites, etc. As far as consumer equipment, like WiFi routers, etc... those are unlicensed, and wouldn't be part of this proposed use. (Though I suppose someone could figure out how to do it with WiFi, etc) [1] https://howltestuffworks.blogspot.com/2019/10/5g-nr-synchronization-signalpbch-block.html https://howltestuffworks.blogspot.com/2019/10/5g-nr-synchron...

dylan604 2y ago

Couldn't they do it in a similar manner as all of the ad tracking stuff that places signals in frequencies out of human hearing ranges? By all types, do you mean my WiFi router too, or just the public broadcasters like TV/Radio? If you're considering commercial broadcast transmitters, there's a downside in that most markets have a central place that is ideal transmission tower location for that area. This means that each station's signal will be very close to each other making them essentially the same location. Smaller stations tend to pop up in different places than the "big boys", but they're also lower power.

ddingus 2y ago
Actually people can hear those. Not all people of course, but I am noticing artifacts in the vocals on some music remasters. Others have reported similar experiences. It is not a big impact. But it is one and I am not entirely sure we need that crap everywhere. We for sure don't need the kind of interruption proposed. It is a good thought with good intent, but the fact is RF use cases are not like network packets.
- dylan604 2y ago
  I'm not sure how remasters with issues have anything to do with this. You're assuming based on my specific example that the tones would need to be in a range that a microphone on a device could hear. I was thinking that the extra data would be part of the broadcast signal vs the content signal where an antenna would pick it up vs a microphone. My original comment didn't really attempt to explain that though. After sleeping on it, I realize, this isn't an analog broadcast anymore so doubtful it could work with extra frequencies in the FM signal
  - ddingus 2y ago
    The older recordings are not encoded with the Arbitron type artifacts. New ones may be. When I compare new vs old, this comes up. Broadcasters put data in band and have done so for what? A decade now? You mentioned out of band tracking data. I am saying there is also in band data. Sorry to be unclear. It is perceptually encoded to ride along with the audio and intended to be inaudible. And it largely is! It is in band so that AD targeting can be done anywhere audio is played aloud. Say a radio station plays the old tune. It adds its signature to the audio stream which can then be picked up by someone using a tracking device at the local fair, for example. Adding it to the tunes themselves can do the same for someone using a boom box or some speaker and give some sense of play outside streaming counts, like where exactly are those streams being heard? Your local coffee place might be a likely candidate. I know the part about radio adding the artifacts is real and old news now. Pretty much all broadcast audio contains it. The artifacts I hear on some remasters sound a whole lot like those I began hearing on broadcast audio. And back then, I asked and was told nicely how it all worked. Pretty clever tech actually. I cannot always hear it. Usually, it has to be material I know well and have heard sans encoding. Or, a voice I know well from a time before encoding. It is just different enough to notice for me and some others I have talked with.

ac29 2y ago

> This allows implementation of a new public service with minimal cost to all concerned I work on private radio networks, and this would require replacing billions of dollars of hardware. Additionally, to be useful for positioning, these locations probably need survey-grade accuracy of their locations. I imagine they would also need higher quality timesources than they typically have (if they even have timesources at all).