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These laws are a balancing act between heritage conservation and civil rights like allowing people to enjoy metal detecting as a hobby. Without these laws and e

These laws are a balancing act between heritage conservation and civil rights like allowing people to enjoy metal detecting as a hobby. Without these laws and effective enforcement of them, looters show up with bulldozers, metal detectors, and work crews in the middle of the night to dig up anything they can sell to what's now a billion dollar global market. I've spent a lot of time as an archaeologist looking at the aftermath and doing public education to stop it. Antiquities laws are generally designed to make antiquities "visible" to the state while also giving authorities teeth if they need to go after these sorts of people. To do that, there's a whole host of laws and conventions that require reporting virtually everything and align the financial incentives/penalties to ensure valuations on any antiquities discovered are as reasonably accurate as possible. It makes things a little inconvenient for the hobbyists, but I personally find that a reasonable tradeoff given the damage that otherwise occurs.

vivekd 2y ago
It seems to me that the evil of having haphazard laws that are enforced arbitrarily on discretion is worse than the evil of heritage loss. This solution is much worse than the cure. Yes it's hard for governments to write narrowly tailored laws to achieve narrowly tailored objectives while avoiding loopholes. That doesn't mean they should devolve into making overly broad laws and then enforcing those laws arbitrarily. That's just behaving like a tyrant.
gadders 2y ago
>>These laws are a balancing act between heritage conservation and civil rights like allowing people to enjoy metal detecting as a hobby. Without these laws and effective enforcement of them, looters show up with bulldozers, metal detectors, and work crews in the middle of the night to dig up anything they can sell to what's now a billion dollar global market. I've spent a lot of time as an archaeologist looking at the aftermath and doing public education to stop it. That doesn't seem to happen in England, which allows metal detecting.
- helsinkiandrew 2y ago
  > That doesn't seem to happen in England, which allows metal detecting. In England you need permission of the landowner (or which ever authority is responsible for a piece of public land) and must report any archeological finds. There's a lot of illegal metal detecting at night - "Nighthawking", and fairly tough convictions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawking https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-68445207 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-68445207
  - subroutine 2y ago
    Laws requiring permission from the land owner to use a metal detector and dig vs. needing such permission on your own land seems very different IMO. The English law seems focused on preventing trespassing and digging holes in people's yards, and also to make sure the land owner gets compensated for anything of value found. (e.g. from the link by madax below: In England "An experienced detectorist, Davies would have known he was entitled to half of the proceeds of legal sale of the treasure, instead choosing to deprive the landowner and public by stealing this exceptional and significant treasure.") The Irish law seems focused on preventing anything from being found.
  - gadders 2y ago
    There is also a fair bit of anger against FLOs (Find Liaison Offers) that the finds are reported to. Detectorists often get low-balled on the value of their find (after a 2 year wait) to make the item affordable for local museums.
- madaxe_again 2y ago
  Literally from the same day’s news: “Metal detectorist who stole £3m Viking hoard jailed for five more years” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/12/metal-detectorist-who-stole-3m-viking-hoard-jailed-for-five-more-years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/12/metal-detect...
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Effectively the same thing applies in the UK. Intentionally searching for these kinds of objects requires an archaeological excavation permit. Unintentionally finding one requires reporting it.

vivekd 2y ago

It seems to me that the evil of having haphazard laws that are enforced arbitrarily on discretion is worse than the evil of heritage loss. This solution is much worse than the cure. Yes it's hard for governments to write narrowly tailored laws to achieve narrowly tailored objectives while avoiding loopholes. That doesn't mean they should devolve into making overly broad laws and then enforcing those laws arbitrarily. That's just behaving like a tyrant.

gadders 2y ago

>>These laws are a balancing act between heritage conservation and civil rights like allowing people to enjoy metal detecting as a hobby. Without these laws and effective enforcement of them, looters show up with bulldozers, metal detectors, and work crews in the middle of the night to dig up anything they can sell to what's now a billion dollar global market. I've spent a lot of time as an archaeologist looking at the aftermath and doing public education to stop it. That doesn't seem to happen in England, which allows metal detecting.

helsinkiandrew 2y ago
> That doesn't seem to happen in England, which allows metal detecting. In England you need permission of the landowner (or which ever authority is responsible for a piece of public land) and must report any archeological finds. There's a lot of illegal metal detecting at night - "Nighthawking", and fairly tough convictions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nighthawking https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-68445207 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-68445207
- subroutine 2y ago
  Laws requiring permission from the land owner to use a metal detector and dig vs. needing such permission on your own land seems very different IMO. The English law seems focused on preventing trespassing and digging holes in people's yards, and also to make sure the land owner gets compensated for anything of value found. (e.g. from the link by madax below: In England "An experienced detectorist, Davies would have known he was entitled to half of the proceeds of legal sale of the treasure, instead choosing to deprive the landowner and public by stealing this exceptional and significant treasure.") The Irish law seems focused on preventing anything from being found.
- gadders 2y ago
  There is also a fair bit of anger against FLOs (Find Liaison Offers) that the finds are reported to. Detectorists often get low-balled on the value of their find (after a 2 year wait) to make the item affordable for local museums.
madaxe_again 2y ago
Literally from the same day’s news: “Metal detectorist who stole £3m Viking hoard jailed for five more years” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/12/metal-detectorist-who-stole-3m-viking-hoard-jailed-for-five-more-years https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/12/metal-detect...
AlotOfReading 2y ago
Effectively the same thing applies in the UK. Intentionally searching for these kinds of objects requires an archaeological excavation permit. Unintentionally finding one requires reporting it.