4 ms·

NextNav's Callous Land-Grab to Privatize 900 MHz

105 points by hn_acker 2y ago

jakeogh 2y ago
It seems like there is an asymmetry, we need a way to allocate this pre-existing 'unlicensed' spectrum explicitly for public use... and 900MHz is def a sweet spot. It shouldn't even make sense to attempt to reallocate it. The public ownership should be immutable.
kldx 2y ago
How common is enforcement in these situations? What happens if a 900MHz baby monitor continues to be used after this chunk of the spectrum is privatized?
- ugjka 2y ago
  Has there been a precedent like this? I imagine tracking down a gazillion baby monitors would be very tiresome
  - heywire 2y ago
    Not to mention that probably a majority of the electric gas and water meters in the US operate in the 902-928 range.
  - EdwardDiego 2y ago
    Generally, from my time in a radio spectrum regulatory body, you start by enforcing EMR compliance at the importer/manufacturing level, so no-one can buy a new 900ishMHz baby monitor that would cause interference - either by regulating allowed transmitter power or just flat out verboten. Then you respond to interference complaints as they come up, and commercial operators tend to be very vigorous in monitoring their spectrum that they're paying for, and can often pinpoint the location reasonably well already, and then the nice radio inspectors come out, triangulate it, and have a friendly talk. Never really had a situation where spectrum that was regulated as "general user" (e.g., no need for a licence, but also no protection against interfering signals) and heavily used by by consumer appliances was modified to no longer be general user though.
    - ddingus 2y ago
      Thanks for your experience. Good to know. There is a ton of gear depending on the current spectrum plan. Seems to me all very problematic and what I read makes it look like the ground based GPS is a ruse for the real money which is selling access to 5G companies, who currently struggle with 5G inability to propagate indoors and in other common terrain. They could solve that problem using spectrum they already have access to. There is no need to ruin 900Mhz for that.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Wireless microphones used by newsies or other production types used a frequency range that was deprecated. Your gear didn't just magically stop working. The places you were allowed to use it got really small. When a crew works an event like a sporting event, all wireless devices and their frequency must be logged to prevent competing signals between crews. If you show up with the old stuff, you're pretty much laughed out of the room and denied use of the gear. At less regulated places, your use of the equipment will just be subject to interference from other signals that are now using the bands. If your use causes interference, you can be subject to appropriate penalties
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
This is just terrible and I’m grateful the EFF keeps an eye on these rent seekers. How can we stop this?
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  Submit your own comments to the FCC and/or reach out to your legislators.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    It also helps if your comments are sent with a check larger than the other side's lobbyist's
    - Jtsummers 2y ago
      Fair, most of us don't have that kind of $$$. So additionally, donate to organizations like the EFF so they can do the legwork for us.
      - ddingus 2y ago
        Been a member for many years.
  - ddingus 2y ago
    Yes. That can be quite effective. I will be writing one. They do not have to attempt this on 900Mhz. And they shouldn't, unless they can do it in a way that does not disturb considerable use of the spectrum present today. And perhaps they can! The EU got along with US gps. I bet this can be done here too, no private spectrum required.
mikewarot 2y ago
We do need a land based GPS alternative. The consequences of losing GPS without a ground based backup in place are almost incalculable. Clearly it doesn't need to be at 902-928 Mhz. [Edit/Brainstorming] I suggest we implement a 0.1% (time) tax on digital RF transmissions of all types, I.E. every second UTC, all Fixed Position transmitters send a 1 millisecond "National Positioning System" packet, with position and delay data with precision timing on all packetized systems using the public airwaves. We could use same system to distribute time signals. This allows implementation of a new public service with minimal cost to all concerned, and we don't have to steal anyone's bandwidth from other services.
- aftbit 2y ago
  Yeah, maybe something like LORAN? Or maybe quantum gyroscopes will shrink in cost and size to allow totally offline navigation without references beyond a known starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope
  - mikewarot 2y ago
    If quantum gyroscopes were made practical, they wouldn't be sold to civilians due to ITAR, as it would make it far, far too easy to make drones that could reach out and strike Peking, Hanoi or Leningrad from here near Fort Dearborn.
    - aftbit 2y ago
      I think you'd have more problems with battery range than with navigation in that specific case, although certainly a cheap, reliable navigation system that works in GPS denied environments would be a huge boon for Ukraine right now. Perhaps the same tricks that are currently done to neuter civilian GPS could be applied. Although as I understand it, those are mainly intended to prevent you from making a cruise or ballistic missile from a box of parts by preventing high speed and high altitude service. Those are likely becoming insufficient in the era of drones, where you don't really need to go outside of civilian GPS approved envelope. Or maybe it will be like cheap IR cameras. The best cheap IR cameras are currently imported from China, because US companies are prevented from creating anything comparable for the civilian market by ITAR.
ddingus 2y ago
Here is the money quote: What NextNav did include however is its intent to resell their exclusive bandwidth access to mobile 5G networks. They admit nobody is calling for ground based GPS. And that can be done in lots of ways and on spectrum already allocated as the EFF says in their piece. Fact is 5G sucks for some use cases, like indoors. And they could fall back to 4G and or do other things to improve on that. Trying to mooch the 900Mhz spectrum away from an active public use, just to resell their shiny new resource to 5G companies looking for easy options is not in the beat public interest. I think they are doing it this way to avoid ugly PR for already disliked wireless companies. But I could be wrong... 900Mhz is excellent and widely used too. Augmenting 5G would make whoever stole it from all of us a lot of money. The great propagation properties are exactly why public use of 900Mhz is popular! I say the 5G companies already have 2G, 3G, 4G and 5G spectrum and the lower frequency ones propagate better in diverse terrain anyway. All this means 5G companies have options and there is no need to allow one company to own what is now a public resource serving the public well just as it is supposed to.
cameldrv 2y ago
You know, if someone were actually interested in doing a modern terrestrial navigation system, I think the DME band would be where to go. It's 962-1213Mhz, a whopping 250Mhz of super prime spectrum. Lots of DMEs are now being decommissioned, so it shouldn't need as much spectrum as it has. Now, there are some other things in that band like radars and such, but I'd bet there's at least 30Mhz or so that you could set aside for a more modern ground based navigation system.

105 points by hn_acker 2y ago

It seems like there is an asymmetry, we need a way to allocate this pre-existing 'unlicensed' spectrum explicitly for public use... and 900MHz is def a sweet spot. It shouldn't even make sense to attempt to reallocate it. The public ownership should be immutable.

kldx 2y ago

How common is enforcement in these situations? What happens if a 900MHz baby monitor continues to be used after this chunk of the spectrum is privatized?

ugjka 2y ago
Has there been a precedent like this? I imagine tracking down a gazillion baby monitors would be very tiresome
- heywire 2y ago
  Not to mention that probably a majority of the electric gas and water meters in the US operate in the 902-928 range.
- EdwardDiego 2y ago
  Generally, from my time in a radio spectrum regulatory body, you start by enforcing EMR compliance at the importer/manufacturing level, so no-one can buy a new 900ishMHz baby monitor that would cause interference - either by regulating allowed transmitter power or just flat out verboten. Then you respond to interference complaints as they come up, and commercial operators tend to be very vigorous in monitoring their spectrum that they're paying for, and can often pinpoint the location reasonably well already, and then the nice radio inspectors come out, triangulate it, and have a friendly talk. Never really had a situation where spectrum that was regulated as "general user" (e.g., no need for a licence, but also no protection against interfering signals) and heavily used by by consumer appliances was modified to no longer be general user though.
  - ddingus 2y ago
    Thanks for your experience. Good to know. There is a ton of gear depending on the current spectrum plan. Seems to me all very problematic and what I read makes it look like the ground based GPS is a ruse for the real money which is selling access to 5G companies, who currently struggle with 5G inability to propagate indoors and in other common terrain. They could solve that problem using spectrum they already have access to. There is no need to ruin 900Mhz for that.
- dylan604 2y ago
  Wireless microphones used by newsies or other production types used a frequency range that was deprecated. Your gear didn't just magically stop working. The places you were allowed to use it got really small. When a crew works an event like a sporting event, all wireless devices and their frequency must be logged to prevent competing signals between crews. If you show up with the old stuff, you're pretty much laughed out of the room and denied use of the gear. At less regulated places, your use of the equipment will just be subject to interference from other signals that are now using the bands. If your use causes interference, you can be subject to appropriate penalties

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

This is just terrible and I’m grateful the EFF keeps an eye on these rent seekers. How can we stop this?

Jtsummers 2y ago
Submit your own comments to the FCC and/or reach out to your legislators.
- dylan604 2y ago
  It also helps if your comments are sent with a check larger than the other side's lobbyist's
  - Jtsummers 2y ago
    Fair, most of us don't have that kind of $$$. So additionally, donate to organizations like the EFF so they can do the legwork for us.
    - ddingus 2y ago
      Been a member for many years.
- ddingus 2y ago
  Yes. That can be quite effective. I will be writing one. They do not have to attempt this on 900Mhz. And they shouldn't, unless they can do it in a way that does not disturb considerable use of the spectrum present today. And perhaps they can! The EU got along with US gps. I bet this can be done here too, no private spectrum required.

mikewarot 2y ago

We do need a land based GPS alternative. The consequences of losing GPS without a ground based backup in place are almost incalculable. Clearly it doesn't need to be at 902-928 Mhz. [Edit/Brainstorming] I suggest we implement a 0.1% (time) tax on digital RF transmissions of all types, I.E. every second UTC, all Fixed Position transmitters send a 1 millisecond "National Positioning System" packet, with position and delay data with precision timing on all packetized systems using the public airwaves. We could use same system to distribute time signals. This allows implementation of a new public service with minimal cost to all concerned, and we don't have to steal anyone's bandwidth from other services.

aftbit 2y ago
Yeah, maybe something like LORAN? Or maybe quantum gyroscopes will shrink in cost and size to allow totally offline navigation without references beyond a known starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gyroscope
- mikewarot 2y ago
  If quantum gyroscopes were made practical, they wouldn't be sold to civilians due to ITAR, as it would make it far, far too easy to make drones that could reach out and strike Peking, Hanoi or Leningrad from here near Fort Dearborn.
  - aftbit 2y ago
    I think you'd have more problems with battery range than with navigation in that specific case, although certainly a cheap, reliable navigation system that works in GPS denied environments would be a huge boon for Ukraine right now. Perhaps the same tricks that are currently done to neuter civilian GPS could be applied. Although as I understand it, those are mainly intended to prevent you from making a cruise or ballistic missile from a box of parts by preventing high speed and high altitude service. Those are likely becoming insufficient in the era of drones, where you don't really need to go outside of civilian GPS approved envelope. Or maybe it will be like cheap IR cameras. The best cheap IR cameras are currently imported from China, because US companies are prevented from creating anything comparable for the civilian market by ITAR.

ddingus 2y ago

Here is the money quote: What NextNav did include however is its intent to resell their exclusive bandwidth access to mobile 5G networks. They admit nobody is calling for ground based GPS. And that can be done in lots of ways and on spectrum already allocated as the EFF says in their piece. Fact is 5G sucks for some use cases, like indoors. And they could fall back to 4G and or do other things to improve on that. Trying to mooch the 900Mhz spectrum away from an active public use, just to resell their shiny new resource to 5G companies looking for easy options is not in the beat public interest. I think they are doing it this way to avoid ugly PR for already disliked wireless companies. But I could be wrong... 900Mhz is excellent and widely used too. Augmenting 5G would make whoever stole it from all of us a lot of money. The great propagation properties are exactly why public use of 900Mhz is popular! I say the 5G companies already have 2G, 3G, 4G and 5G spectrum and the lower frequency ones propagate better in diverse terrain anyway. All this means 5G companies have options and there is no need to allow one company to own what is now a public resource serving the public well just as it is supposed to.

cameldrv 2y ago

You know, if someone were actually interested in doing a modern terrestrial navigation system, I think the DME band would be where to go. It's 962-1213Mhz, a whopping 250Mhz of super prime spectrum. Lots of DMEs are now being decommissioned, so it shouldn't need as much spectrum as it has. Now, there are some other things in that band like radars and such, but I'd bet there's at least 30Mhz or so that you could set aside for a more modern ground based navigation system.