9 ms·

That's definitely weird, and I wonder how legal it is.

by COAGULOPATH 2y ago

hiddencost 2y ago
They can charge whatever they want.
- kgeist 2y ago
  In my country, it's illegal to charge different people differently if there's no explicitly signed agreement where the both sides agree to it. Without an agreement, there must be a reasonable and verifiable justification for a change in the price. I think suddenly charging you $100 more (compared to other consumers) without explaining how you calculated it is somewhat illegal here.
  - Me1000 2y ago
    They explain how it's calculated, you just have to trust their calculations are correct.
  - rmbyrro 2y ago
    There's no change in price. They charge the same amount per token from everyone. You pay more if you use more tokens. If some tokens are hidden, used internally to generate the final 'public' tokens is just a matter of technical implementation and business choice. If you're not happy, don't use the service.
    - kgeist 2y ago
      Well imagine how it looks from the point of view of anti-discrimination and consumer protection laws: we charge this person an additional $100 because we have some imaginary units telling us they owe us $100... Just trust us. Not sure it will hold in court. If the both sides agree to a specific sum beforehand, no problem. But you can't just charge random amounts post factum without the person having any idea why they suddenly owe those amounts. P.S. However, if the API includes CoT tokens in the total token count (in API responses), I guess it's OK.
      - falcor84 2y ago
        > But you can't just charge random amounts post factum without the person having any idea why they suddenly owe those amounts. Is it actually different from paying a contractor to do some work for you on an hourly basis, and them then having to "think more" and thus spend more hours on problem A than probably B?
      - DoesntMatter22 2y ago
        I think they'd just decide to not sell in your country rather than deal with that.
  - blibble 2y ago
    where's this? the soviet union? this completely rules out any form of negotiation for anything, ever
    - kgeist 2y ago
      See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41535865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41535865 There's no problem if a specific sum is negotiated beforehand. Doesn't OpenAI bill at the end of the month post factum?
    - PufPufPuf 2y ago
      It doesn't rule out negotiation. That's what the part about a written agreement is for. It merely rules out pulling prices out of thin air. Which is what OpenAI is doing here, charging for an arbitrary amount of completely invisible tokens. The shady part is that you don't know how much of these hidden tokens you would use before you actually use them, thus making it possible to arbitrarily charge some customers different amounts whenever OpenAI feels like it.
mritchie712 2y ago
yes, I practice LLM Law and this is definitely illegal.

That's definitely weird, and I wonder how legal it is.

hiddencost 2y ago

They can charge whatever they want.

kgeist 2y ago
In my country, it's illegal to charge different people differently if there's no explicitly signed agreement where the both sides agree to it. Without an agreement, there must be a reasonable and verifiable justification for a change in the price. I think suddenly charging you $100 more (compared to other consumers) without explaining how you calculated it is somewhat illegal here.
- Me1000 2y ago
  They explain how it's calculated, you just have to trust their calculations are correct.
- rmbyrro 2y ago
  There's no change in price. They charge the same amount per token from everyone. You pay more if you use more tokens. If some tokens are hidden, used internally to generate the final 'public' tokens is just a matter of technical implementation and business choice. If you're not happy, don't use the service.
  - kgeist 2y ago
    Well imagine how it looks from the point of view of anti-discrimination and consumer protection laws: we charge this person an additional $100 because we have some imaginary units telling us they owe us $100... Just trust us. Not sure it will hold in court. If the both sides agree to a specific sum beforehand, no problem. But you can't just charge random amounts post factum without the person having any idea why they suddenly owe those amounts. P.S. However, if the API includes CoT tokens in the total token count (in API responses), I guess it's OK.
    - falcor84 2y ago
      > But you can't just charge random amounts post factum without the person having any idea why they suddenly owe those amounts. Is it actually different from paying a contractor to do some work for you on an hourly basis, and them then having to "think more" and thus spend more hours on problem A than probably B?
    - DoesntMatter22 2y ago
      I think they'd just decide to not sell in your country rather than deal with that.
- blibble 2y ago
  where's this? the soviet union? this completely rules out any form of negotiation for anything, ever
  - kgeist 2y ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41535865 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41535865 There's no problem if a specific sum is negotiated beforehand. Doesn't OpenAI bill at the end of the month post factum?
  - PufPufPuf 2y ago
    It doesn't rule out negotiation. That's what the part about a written agreement is for. It merely rules out pulling prices out of thin air. Which is what OpenAI is doing here, charging for an arbitrary amount of completely invisible tokens. The shady part is that you don't know how much of these hidden tokens you would use before you actually use them, thus making it possible to arbitrarily charge some customers different amounts whenever OpenAI feels like it.

mritchie712 2y ago

yes, I practice LLM Law and this is definitely illegal.