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This comparison is backwards. Listening to music performed in person by other humans is the natural way of things, like actually having sex with another human.

This comparison is backwards. Listening to music performed in person by other humans is the natural way of things, like actually having sex with another human. Recorded music is much more like pornography.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
Following that logic: ‘Reading words etched into a stone or inscribed on papyrus by other human hands is the natural way of things, like actually having sex with another human. Reading words created via machines is much more like pornography.’
- itishappy 2y ago
  Words etched in stone? Bah! Words were created for speach! > For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise. > - Socrates https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439 https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439
  - hooverd 2y ago
    He's not wrong- the average bookcel doesn't have the same sort of oral recall that storytellers of past had. Not that it's a bad thing.
itishappy 2y ago
That's a fascinating perspective. I wonder if there was any pushback when recording was first introduced? A quick search shows... of course there was! https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/06/06/the-record-effect https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/06/06/the-record-eff... https://archive.is/PDR04 https://archive.is/PDR04
- vundercind 2y ago
  Kurt Vonnegut wrote in a couple of places about how recording and mass reproduction destroyed the social (and monetary) value of small-time creative or artistic-expression talent, like knowing how to play the piano OK or being a pretty-good singer or dancing decently well, or being a quite good (but not top 0.1% good) storyteller, or being fairly good at sketching people. Took social, and perhaps making-a-living value almost totally away from anything but tip-top talent in those areas. Nobody in your family needs you to play music at get-togethers and parties—you’re worse and less-convenient than thousands of artists on Spotify. They don’t wonder with excitement what sort of sketches Uncle Robert will bring to the next holiday, to give to his extended family. At best, that kind of thing’s indulged and tolerated now. The demand is all but entirely gone. I reckon it was a real belief of his, given he wrote of it more than once, and whose voice it was put in, the one specific case I can call. There’s a chapter in Bluebeard about it for sure (that novel’s kind of a whirlwind tour of most of the major themes and points of Vonnegut’s work—dunno if it was intended that way, but that’s how it turned out) and I know I saw it other places, can’t recall which books.
  - amoorthy 2y ago
    Really thoughtful comment. (An upvote was not enough :-)
    - vundercind 2y ago
      Haha, the thoughtful parts are Vonnegut’s. I found an abbreviated quote from the bit I’m thinking of in Bluebeard. Loses some of it, but gets his point across: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/277466-simply-moderate-giftedness-has-been-made-worthless-by-the-printing https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/277466-simply-moderate-gift... But I am quite sure I saw similar sentiments at least one other place in his work, and I think a couple places—years and years ago I read most of his novels, plus most of the collected short fiction and short stories, but it’s all pretty fuzzy now.
      - Hasu 2y ago
makeitdouble 2y ago
I'm not sure I follow, how is listening to music performed by another human live different from watching another human performing a sexy act live ? The analog to actually having sex would be playing with the band on the stage.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Fair point. The reason I don’t think only playing with the band counts is: in a hunter gather tribe 70,000 years ago, did everyone sing all of the songs all of the time? Or did some people just listen, at least some of the time? Practically speaking I think it must have been the latter. Of course there are lots of unnatural aspects in live music still, like too many people, too loud, etc. But recorded music is wholly unnatural, like pornography is.
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    I get how it could be seen as "natural", but I'm not sure to see value in that definition. From that token, most of human culture is unnnatural, but honestly it doesn't bother me much. I'm glad we have books, even as it's not as natural as oral transmission. I love photography, I'm so glad we have chemical food that requires such a brewing process to come to fruition, and I have no desire to go back to a hunter gatherer society, I like civilization in general. And pornography is sure part of it.
  - nullstyle 2y ago
    > Practically speaking I think it must have been the latter. This assumes music was made as a performance. Music can be (and i argue probably mostly was) people jamming together. Musician and audience are blurred in this scenario.
    - RevEng 2y ago
      Agreed, that's my experience growing up in a family where we regularly sang songs together casually as part of parties. It was less about listening to one performer and more about being part of the performance. Same still happens today with things like choirs - people are in it for singing with others, not for the eventual public performance. It's a very social activity.
antimemetics 2y ago
The natural way of things is to die at 30 of dysentery- I’m glad we are past that
- cocok 2y ago
  I don't know, quality of modern life degrades after 30 for many of us. After living with chronic diseases for a decade or two, I kinda envy the hunter-gatherers. Die quickly at 30, with 10 children and some grandchildren even. Sounds like mission accomplished to me.
vasco 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
standardUser 2y ago
There is plenty of live streaming porn as well. Not to mention live sex shows.

MichaelZuo 2y ago

Following that logic: ‘Reading words etched into a stone or inscribed on papyrus by other human hands is the natural way of things, like actually having sex with another human. Reading words created via machines is much more like pornography.’

itishappy 2y ago
Words etched in stone? Bah! Words were created for speach! > For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise. > - Socrates https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439 https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439
- hooverd 2y ago
  He's not wrong- the average bookcel doesn't have the same sort of oral recall that storytellers of past had. Not that it's a bad thing.

itishappy 2y ago

That's a fascinating perspective. I wonder if there was any pushback when recording was first introduced? A quick search shows... of course there was! https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/06/06/the-record-effect https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/06/06/the-record-eff... https://archive.is/PDR04 https://archive.is/PDR04

vundercind 2y ago
Kurt Vonnegut wrote in a couple of places about how recording and mass reproduction destroyed the social (and monetary) value of small-time creative or artistic-expression talent, like knowing how to play the piano OK or being a pretty-good singer or dancing decently well, or being a quite good (but not top 0.1% good) storyteller, or being fairly good at sketching people. Took social, and perhaps making-a-living value almost totally away from anything but tip-top talent in those areas. Nobody in your family needs you to play music at get-togethers and parties—you’re worse and less-convenient than thousands of artists on Spotify. They don’t wonder with excitement what sort of sketches Uncle Robert will bring to the next holiday, to give to his extended family. At best, that kind of thing’s indulged and tolerated now. The demand is all but entirely gone. I reckon it was a real belief of his, given he wrote of it more than once, and whose voice it was put in, the one specific case I can call. There’s a chapter in Bluebeard about it for sure (that novel’s kind of a whirlwind tour of most of the major themes and points of Vonnegut’s work—dunno if it was intended that way, but that’s how it turned out) and I know I saw it other places, can’t recall which books.
- amoorthy 2y ago
  Really thoughtful comment. (An upvote was not enough :-)
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Haha, the thoughtful parts are Vonnegut’s. I found an abbreviated quote from the bit I’m thinking of in Bluebeard. Loses some of it, but gets his point across: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/277466-simply-moderate-giftedness-has-been-made-worthless-by-the-printing https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/277466-simply-moderate-gift... But I am quite sure I saw similar sentiments at least one other place in his work, and I think a couple places—years and years ago I read most of his novels, plus most of the collected short fiction and short stories, but it’s all pretty fuzzy now.
    - Hasu 2y ago

makeitdouble 2y ago

I'm not sure I follow, how is listening to music performed by another human live different from watching another human performing a sexy act live ? The analog to actually having sex would be playing with the band on the stage.

pfannkuchen 2y ago
Fair point. The reason I don’t think only playing with the band counts is: in a hunter gather tribe 70,000 years ago, did everyone sing all of the songs all of the time? Or did some people just listen, at least some of the time? Practically speaking I think it must have been the latter. Of course there are lots of unnatural aspects in live music still, like too many people, too loud, etc. But recorded music is wholly unnatural, like pornography is.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  I get how it could be seen as "natural", but I'm not sure to see value in that definition. From that token, most of human culture is unnnatural, but honestly it doesn't bother me much. I'm glad we have books, even as it's not as natural as oral transmission. I love photography, I'm so glad we have chemical food that requires such a brewing process to come to fruition, and I have no desire to go back to a hunter gatherer society, I like civilization in general. And pornography is sure part of it.
- nullstyle 2y ago
  > Practically speaking I think it must have been the latter. This assumes music was made as a performance. Music can be (and i argue probably mostly was) people jamming together. Musician and audience are blurred in this scenario.
  - RevEng 2y ago
    Agreed, that's my experience growing up in a family where we regularly sang songs together casually as part of parties. It was less about listening to one performer and more about being part of the performance. Same still happens today with things like choirs - people are in it for singing with others, not for the eventual public performance. It's a very social activity.

antimemetics 2y ago

The natural way of things is to die at 30 of dysentery- I’m glad we are past that

cocok 2y ago
I don't know, quality of modern life degrades after 30 for many of us. After living with chronic diseases for a decade or two, I kinda envy the hunter-gatherers. Die quickly at 30, with 10 children and some grandchildren even. Sounds like mission accomplished to me.

vasco 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

standardUser 2y ago

There is plenty of live streaming porn as well. Not to mention live sex shows.