4 ms·

'You're not a polar bear: The plunge into cold water comes with risks'

16 points by MilnerRoute 2y ago

adrian_b 2y ago
This is no joke, it is a real danger of which one must be aware. I have seen such a case. Several decades ago, the son of a coworker of my father, a young male in his twenties, not previously known with health conditions, has died by jumping in very cold water during a hot summer day. It happened that there under water there was a cold current and the water was much colder than expected. He had an instant cardiac arrest and it passed some time until people around realized what happened, so resuscitation failed.
_yb2s 2y ago
The title implies that humans lack biological adaptations to swimming in cold water, but this isn’t true: we have an unusual amount of subcutaneous fat, the mammalian dive response, etc. Like this article says- you need to be in good health and adapt your body to doing it over time, and it is fine. I’ve been practicing Wim Hof for a while, and can swim and freedive in ice cold water for quite a long time without any major issues. My body does not panic and tense up because I have learned how to relax and prevent that.
- swalling 2y ago
  The warnings here are not theoretical. Multiple people have died following Wim Hof's advice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof#Method-related_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof#Method-related_deaths
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    From what I've seen all of those deaths are from people ignoring his repeated warnings and advice in all of his materials. I do think some of those warnings were added after people died, but they are still doing things he has never done himself or told people to do. No part of his method suggests hyperventilating or holding your breath immediately before, or while in the water- it is something done separately or beforehand, and he explicitly tells people not to do it. I am also a freediver, and it is well known that hyperventilating before holding your breath is a deadly thing to do in the water, because it can cause blackout- and that seems to be what people are (incorrectly) doing here.
    - 79a6ed87 2y ago
      >I am also a freediver, and it is well known that hyperventilating before holding your breath is a deadly thing to do in the water, because it can cause blackout- and that seems to be what people are (incorrectly) doing here. Coincidentally, Wim Hof and his technique came out in a conversation with a friend last night, and when he mentioned that hyperventilating was a big part of it I told him that it was a contraindication for epileptic people like me. Actually, they diagnosed me by wiring me to an EEG machine while hyperventilating on purpose. I lost consciousness in the middle of the study.
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        Wim Hof does warn in his class and materials that people with epilepsy should not do his method.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Hof is a dangerous fraud. His identical twin brother doesn't follow these practices at all and has the exact same capabilities. They are just genetic outliers. > Professor Mike Tipton of the University of Portsmouth, who has been studying the effects of cold water on the body for 40 years, found that young and healthy individuals had a 1 to 3 per cent chance of cardiac arrhythmia when in cold water. > But when they were asked to hold their breath beforehand, that figure rose to 63 per cent. “It’s an incredible way of reproducing cardiac arrhythmias in otherwise fit and healthy individuals,” he said. This man has blood on his hands and you're just lucky it isn't yours.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    This is nonsense, your information is not correct. Yes, I have read the study[1] where they found his brother didn't have any measurable physiological differences... the thing is anybody can do this stuff, not just him and his brother- me and several friends that are into it also can. He may have a BAT mutation that makes it easier to do longer, but focusing on that is missing the point. The adaptations are psychological, it is a type of meditation/yoga- his methods are based on ancient Tibetan Vajrayana methods like Tummo, that he has innovated on somewhat. What both cold water immersion, and his breathing method do is cause a physiological panic- from either the cold, or from manipulating CO2 levels. This forms the basis for a type of meditation where you learn to calm this response. That can be life changing, because it allows you to control stress and anxiety, and stay clear and calm when doing difficult things in other areas of life. This isn't explicitly explained by Wim, because it requires an attitude or feeling rather than an explanation, which happens automatically with practice. If you know about Vajrayana, this makes a bit more sense. I think it is pretty obvious that the panic itself is dangerous and likely the major cause of e.g. cardiac events, and training your mind and body to not panic does make it safer- that was the point of my original post you replied to. Wim is a skilled yoga practictioner and instructor, that is all he is. He is not a scientist, and (unfortunately) likes to make scientific claims that aren't exactly fraudulent, just incoherent- he is excited about but doesn't understand what people found when studying him, is trying to talk about it, but is saying incorrect things. As a scientist I wish he would not do that- the value of his methods is obvious from experiencing them- they have been life changing for my mental health, I don't need a scientific explanation that they have some provable physical effect. The people dying from doing this have all been doing it incorrectly- explicitly doing things he tells people not to do: they are doing the breathing and cold water at the same time, blacking out from low oxygen, and then drowning. Wim doesn't do that, or tell anyone to do it. I am also a freediver, and this is basic freediving 101 safety, to not do any hyperventilation breathing exercises before diving. Ultimately, like all human activities, there is some danger in doing this method but saying he has "blood on his hands" or is a fraud is absurd and hyperbolic. There is nothing really especially dangerous about this compared to other difficult yoga techniques, which also have both risks and benefits. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25014028/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25014028/
MrDresden 2y ago
> "Plunging the body into cold water triggers a sudden, rapid increase in breathing, heart rate and blood pressure known as the cold shock response." I regularly sit in cold tubs (2-8°C) for minutes on end and never have this happen. Not because my physiology is different, but because I do not jump into cold water and fully submerge myself in one go. I slowly walk into the tub, lowering myself in while focusing on my breathing. My breathing is slow and stable, and via a health tracker I know for a fact that my heart rate slows down. These cold tubs are all over Iceland, and I have lost count of the times I've sat in one when tourists (overwhelmingly Americans) just run into them screaming and shouting and then immediately run back when the shock hits them. I'm no fan of the personal cult of Hof, but cold plunges have done wonders for my anxiety and joints. They just need to be done correctly, like anything else.

16 points by MilnerRoute 2y ago

This is no joke, it is a real danger of which one must be aware. I have seen such a case. Several decades ago, the son of a coworker of my father, a young male in his twenties, not previously known with health conditions, has died by jumping in very cold water during a hot summer day. It happened that there under water there was a cold current and the water was much colder than expected. He had an instant cardiac arrest and it passed some time until people around realized what happened, so resuscitation failed.

_yb2s 2y ago

The title implies that humans lack biological adaptations to swimming in cold water, but this isn’t true: we have an unusual amount of subcutaneous fat, the mammalian dive response, etc. Like this article says- you need to be in good health and adapt your body to doing it over time, and it is fine. I’ve been practicing Wim Hof for a while, and can swim and freedive in ice cold water for quite a long time without any major issues. My body does not panic and tense up because I have learned how to relax and prevent that.

swalling 2y ago
The warnings here are not theoretical. Multiple people have died following Wim Hof's advice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof#Method-related_deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof#Method-related_deaths
- _yb2s 2y ago
  From what I've seen all of those deaths are from people ignoring his repeated warnings and advice in all of his materials. I do think some of those warnings were added after people died, but they are still doing things he has never done himself or told people to do. No part of his method suggests hyperventilating or holding your breath immediately before, or while in the water- it is something done separately or beforehand, and he explicitly tells people not to do it. I am also a freediver, and it is well known that hyperventilating before holding your breath is a deadly thing to do in the water, because it can cause blackout- and that seems to be what people are (incorrectly) doing here.
  - 79a6ed87 2y ago
    >I am also a freediver, and it is well known that hyperventilating before holding your breath is a deadly thing to do in the water, because it can cause blackout- and that seems to be what people are (incorrectly) doing here. Coincidentally, Wim Hof and his technique came out in a conversation with a friend last night, and when he mentioned that hyperventilating was a big part of it I told him that it was a contraindication for epileptic people like me. Actually, they diagnosed me by wiring me to an EEG machine while hyperventilating on purpose. I lost consciousness in the middle of the study.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      Wim Hof does warn in his class and materials that people with epilepsy should not do his method.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
Hof is a dangerous fraud. His identical twin brother doesn't follow these practices at all and has the exact same capabilities. They are just genetic outliers. > Professor Mike Tipton of the University of Portsmouth, who has been studying the effects of cold water on the body for 40 years, found that young and healthy individuals had a 1 to 3 per cent chance of cardiac arrhythmia when in cold water. > But when they were asked to hold their breath beforehand, that figure rose to 63 per cent. “It’s an incredible way of reproducing cardiac arrhythmias in otherwise fit and healthy individuals,” he said. This man has blood on his hands and you're just lucky it isn't yours.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  This is nonsense, your information is not correct. Yes, I have read the study[1] where they found his brother didn't have any measurable physiological differences... the thing is anybody can do this stuff, not just him and his brother- me and several friends that are into it also can. He may have a BAT mutation that makes it easier to do longer, but focusing on that is missing the point. The adaptations are psychological, it is a type of meditation/yoga- his methods are based on ancient Tibetan Vajrayana methods like Tummo, that he has innovated on somewhat. What both cold water immersion, and his breathing method do is cause a physiological panic- from either the cold, or from manipulating CO2 levels. This forms the basis for a type of meditation where you learn to calm this response. That can be life changing, because it allows you to control stress and anxiety, and stay clear and calm when doing difficult things in other areas of life. This isn't explicitly explained by Wim, because it requires an attitude or feeling rather than an explanation, which happens automatically with practice. If you know about Vajrayana, this makes a bit more sense. I think it is pretty obvious that the panic itself is dangerous and likely the major cause of e.g. cardiac events, and training your mind and body to not panic does make it safer- that was the point of my original post you replied to. Wim is a skilled yoga practictioner and instructor, that is all he is. He is not a scientist, and (unfortunately) likes to make scientific claims that aren't exactly fraudulent, just incoherent- he is excited about but doesn't understand what people found when studying him, is trying to talk about it, but is saying incorrect things. As a scientist I wish he would not do that- the value of his methods is obvious from experiencing them- they have been life changing for my mental health, I don't need a scientific explanation that they have some provable physical effect. The people dying from doing this have all been doing it incorrectly- explicitly doing things he tells people not to do: they are doing the breathing and cold water at the same time, blacking out from low oxygen, and then drowning. Wim doesn't do that, or tell anyone to do it. I am also a freediver, and this is basic freediving 101 safety, to not do any hyperventilation breathing exercises before diving. Ultimately, like all human activities, there is some danger in doing this method but saying he has "blood on his hands" or is a fraud is absurd and hyperbolic. There is nothing really especially dangerous about this compared to other difficult yoga techniques, which also have both risks and benefits. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25014028/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25014028/

MrDresden 2y ago

> "Plunging the body into cold water triggers a sudden, rapid increase in breathing, heart rate and blood pressure known as the cold shock response." I regularly sit in cold tubs (2-8°C) for minutes on end and never have this happen. Not because my physiology is different, but because I do not jump into cold water and fully submerge myself in one go. I slowly walk into the tub, lowering myself in while focusing on my breathing. My breathing is slow and stable, and via a health tracker I know for a fact that my heart rate slows down. These cold tubs are all over Iceland, and I have lost count of the times I've sat in one when tourists (overwhelmingly Americans) just run into them screaming and shouting and then immediately run back when the shock hits them. I'm no fan of the personal cult of Hof, but cold plunges have done wonders for my anxiety and joints. They just need to be done correctly, like anything else.