5 ms·

> It's no surprise capital goes elsewhere. Is it, though? China isn't immune from bad economic policy, but its per capita GDP growth still remains globally imp

by gary_0 2y ago

> It's no surprise capital goes elsewhere. Is it, though? China isn't immune from bad economic policy, but its per capita GDP growth still remains globally impressive[0]. In spite of recent difficulties they're still on an amazing trajectory. Sure, maybe their chickens are about to come home to roost and they're finally in for a reckoning. I feel like that's the wrong take, though. We've spent the last 30 years with a smirk on our face waiting for China to realize their mistake of eschewing democracy and liberal economics. Somehow they've become the second most powerful nation in the world instead. They're playing an entirely different game, over there. We underestimate them at our own peril. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_per_capita_growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_...

chairmansteve 2y ago
I saw a comment somewhere that China uses free markets for the benefit of the state, whereas the USA uses free markets for the benefit of private capital.
- signatoremo 2y ago
  China mint the most numbers of millionaires and billionaires in the 21st century.
  - pragmomm 2y ago
    China also has 800 million people making less than $100/month. where do you think the millionaires and billionaires in China skimmed their wealth from?
    - ricochet11 2y ago
      source? or did you mean $1000/month?
      - pragmomm 2y ago
        https://www.cnbctv18.com/economy/china-has-over-600-million-poor-with-140-monthly-income-premier-li-keqiang-6024341.htm https://www.cnbctv18.com/economy/china-has-over-600-million-... the updated 2023 estimate is in mandarin
        refurb 2y ago
        While China has made great strides people dont seem to understand that the vast majority of Chinese have the kind of wealth you'd see in a developing country like Thailand or Indonesia. They are nowhere close to the Us or Europe.
dyauspitr 2y ago
Yep they’ve figured out a viable alternative to liberal economics. I’d say the only weakness is if whoever in charge isn’t a benevolent dictator. Democracy is more robust when it comes to this but the trade off is slower growth and much more inefficiencies.
- pragmomm 2y ago
  viable alternative for maybe 20 million upper class people in China. 800 million others are making less than $100/month.
  - DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
    There are more than 20 million people in Shanghai alone, not to mention Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Tianjin, and all the other rich cities in China. The average income in China is around $1000/month, and I frankly don't trust your claim that more than half the population lives on just 10% of that.
refurb 2y ago
> Somehow they've become the second most powerful nation in the world instead. I think you are mistaking total GDP with "most powerful".
- gary_0 2y ago
  Note that I said second most powerful. And yes, the size of a country's economy is one of the major factors when considering its geopolitical influence (though obviously not the only factor). If you disagree, which country is #2 if not China?
  - refurb 2y ago
    If i look at military power id say Russia is #2 consider its international. If you mean geopolitical influence, id say the major European countries are ahead of China.
    - gary_0 2y ago
      > If i look at military power id say Russia is #2 Russia, that just tried to take over a country with 1/14th of the economy and 1/4th of the population, failed, and is at this very moment having its own territory invaded in turn? Meanwhile, China has roughly double the military spending, 50% more active personnel, more weapons, and almost definitely more morale and discipline. And while China's military might be less tested, Russia's was just tested and it broke. It was also really funny when their elite mercenary corps turned around and bum-rushed Moscow. > If you mean geopolitical influence, id say the major European countries China's Exim Bank finances more than the total export financing of the G7, combined[0]. China's foreign aid program rivals members of the G7 as well. But it's not fair to compare the G7 or the whole European bloc against a single country. So let's say Germany. Sure, they're popular with the US and their continental brethren, but their influence on countries outside that sphere, particularly developing countries, does not match China's. For instance, they don't have anything like China's $100-billion Belt and Road initiative. China has also invested all over the world in everything from infrastructure to mining projects, even in G7 countries. And in spite of the West's pullback, they're still the "world's factory", while Germany has had difficulty keeping its (recently declining) manufacturing industries competitive against China's[1]. Germany, like many countries in the world, also relies on China as its largest trading partner. So given the data I've seen, I can't say any one European country, or even a handful, matches up to China. This would make sense given China's much larger population, staggering industrial capacity, aggressive worldwide investment strategies, and leadership among dozens of developing countries. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export%E2%80%93Import_Bank_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export%E2%80%93Import_Bank_of_... [1] https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/german-consumer-is-poor-substitute-china-trade-2024-05-21/ https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/german-consumer-is-poo...

by gary_0 2y ago

chairmansteve 2y ago

I saw a comment somewhere that China uses free markets for the benefit of the state, whereas the USA uses free markets for the benefit of private capital.

signatoremo 2y ago
China mint the most numbers of millionaires and billionaires in the 21st century.
- pragmomm 2y ago
  China also has 800 million people making less than $100/month. where do you think the millionaires and billionaires in China skimmed their wealth from?
  - ricochet11 2y ago
    source? or did you mean $1000/month?
    - pragmomm 2y ago
      https://www.cnbctv18.com/economy/china-has-over-600-million-poor-with-140-monthly-income-premier-li-keqiang-6024341.htm https://www.cnbctv18.com/economy/china-has-over-600-million-... the updated 2023 estimate is in mandarin
      - refurb 2y ago
        While China has made great strides people dont seem to understand that the vast majority of Chinese have the kind of wealth you'd see in a developing country like Thailand or Indonesia. They are nowhere close to the Us or Europe.

dyauspitr 2y ago

Yep they’ve figured out a viable alternative to liberal economics. I’d say the only weakness is if whoever in charge isn’t a benevolent dictator. Democracy is more robust when it comes to this but the trade off is slower growth and much more inefficiencies.

pragmomm 2y ago
viable alternative for maybe 20 million upper class people in China. 800 million others are making less than $100/month.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  There are more than 20 million people in Shanghai alone, not to mention Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Tianjin, and all the other rich cities in China. The average income in China is around $1000/month, and I frankly don't trust your claim that more than half the population lives on just 10% of that.

refurb 2y ago

> Somehow they've become the second most powerful nation in the world instead. I think you are mistaking total GDP with "most powerful".

gary_0 2y ago
Note that I said second most powerful. And yes, the size of a country's economy is one of the major factors when considering its geopolitical influence (though obviously not the only factor). If you disagree, which country is #2 if not China?
- refurb 2y ago
  If i look at military power id say Russia is #2 consider its international. If you mean geopolitical influence, id say the major European countries are ahead of China.
  - gary_0 2y ago
    > If i look at military power id say Russia is #2 Russia, that just tried to take over a country with 1/14th of the economy and 1/4th of the population, failed, and is at this very moment having its own territory invaded in turn? Meanwhile, China has roughly double the military spending, 50% more active personnel, more weapons, and almost definitely more morale and discipline. And while China's military might be less tested, Russia's was just tested and it broke. It was also really funny when their elite mercenary corps turned around and bum-rushed Moscow. > If you mean geopolitical influence, id say the major European countries China's Exim Bank finances more than the total export financing of the G7, combined[0]. China's foreign aid program rivals members of the G7 as well. But it's not fair to compare the G7 or the whole European bloc against a single country. So let's say Germany. Sure, they're popular with the US and their continental brethren, but their influence on countries outside that sphere, particularly developing countries, does not match China's. For instance, they don't have anything like China's $100-billion Belt and Road initiative. China has also invested all over the world in everything from infrastructure to mining projects, even in G7 countries. And in spite of the West's pullback, they're still the "world's factory", while Germany has had difficulty keeping its (recently declining) manufacturing industries competitive against China's[1]. Germany, like many countries in the world, also relies on China as its largest trading partner. So given the data I've seen, I can't say any one European country, or even a handful, matches up to China. This would make sense given China's much larger population, staggering industrial capacity, aggressive worldwide investment strategies, and leadership among dozens of developing countries. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export%E2%80%93Import_Bank_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export%E2%80%93Import_Bank_of_... [1] https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/german-consumer-is-poor-substitute-china-trade-2024-05-21/ https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/german-consumer-is-poo...