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If anything this highlights how important Vienna was pre-WW1 and how much that status has changed. I suspect history articles of the future could likewise point

by causal 2y ago

If anything this highlights how important Vienna was pre-WW1 and how much that status has changed. I suspect history articles of the future could likewise point to Manhattan as having hosted many famous people simultaneously, and anyone living today wouldn't find that terribly surprising.

mikhailfranco 2y ago
Same people. Many refugees (mostly Jewish) from Vienna went to Manhattan, or the Manhattan Project. A few, like Freud or Popper, stopped in Britain, but many passed through to New York. Bernays (Freud's nephew) used his uncle's psychological insights to invent propaganda, marketing, advertising and PR. Others invented atomic and hydrogen bombs (probably less devastating than therapy and ads :) Some were Soviet atomic spies that reported back to the USSR. Much of American pre-war/post-war intellectual life is due to European refugees. It's interesting to posit what might have happened without the influx.
- Saturnial22 2y ago
  [flagged]
- piombisallow 2y ago
  And arguably much of current decline in intellectual standards in the public space is to blame on the integration and Americanization of their descendants.
  - thruway516 2y ago
    Woah! what? Lol. Considering the number of nobel laureates, manhattan project scientists, turing award winners not to mention industry pioneers, prominent cultural figure etc that group has produced it would seem they did the opposite.
    - piombisallow 2y ago
      That's what I'm saying, read my comment again. America's highest intellectual achievements came after WW2, when there was the highest influx of European intellectuals (who studied in Europe, or were first generation). The current state of affairs is imo a kind of regression to the mean, where the culture that created them couldn't be reproduced in the US system - thus the integration and americanization of their descendants.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      I think they are essentially claiming that "Americanism" has lower standards than the ethnicities that moved to America as refugees. So the people who were refugees, like all the jewish physicists in the Manhattan project came from culture that valued higher education and socially liberal society and all those good things, while American culture doesn't, so getting them "americanized" makes them value higher education etc less. Which would be incorrect, as Manhattan ALSO has a hyper conservative Orthodox jewish population which did not assimilate largely and basically caused measles outbreaks because they are vaccine "hesitant"
- frmersdog 2y ago
  The world probably would have missed out on a lot, since American industry (and exploitation) funded their R&D. Additionally, the next generation of (American, born-and-bred) scientists and engineers took us from their breakthroughs to more recent ones. The amazing things that can happen when people who were able to get an education are paid and tasked with something other than selling ads and opioids.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    > American industry (and exploitation) funded their R&D. Don’t forget that European industry was demolished in the war > when people who were able to get an education are paid and tasked with something other than selling ads and opioids. Efficient market!
lostlogin 2y ago
> If anything this highlights how important Vienna was pre-WW1 and how much that status has changed. The status might have changed, but the city remains beautiful, and is an amazing place to visit. It’s up there as one of my favourite places. The architecture, museums, galleries, food etc.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Vienna is nice, but also a has-been much like Rome or Athens is. Not just in raw power, but in intellectual capacity - its best minds are gone, or possibly underutilized and working some boring jobs. But given the Holocaust, I would bet on "mostly gone". (Same with Budapest, BTW. There won't be any new Jewish-Hungarian "Martians" like von Neumann or Teller.) The only pre-WWI European capital that remained truly globally relevant is London. Istanbul and St. Peterburg are also important megacities, though stripped of their capital status.
  - archagon 2y ago
    How do you define global relevance? Plenty of European capitals in this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_World_Cities_Research_Network https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_World_Citi...
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      Let us say "Top 10". In 1914, most of the Top 10 cities were in Europe. Today, London and Paris are.
  - dlx 2y ago
    Interesting take. What in your mind are the top 10 intellectual cities of the current era?
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      This is really an interesting question. Plenty of culture war topics that currently shape the Western civilization originate in Berkeley or Boston.

by causal 2y ago

mikhailfranco 2y ago

Same people. Many refugees (mostly Jewish) from Vienna went to Manhattan, or the Manhattan Project. A few, like Freud or Popper, stopped in Britain, but many passed through to New York. Bernays (Freud's nephew) used his uncle's psychological insights to invent propaganda, marketing, advertising and PR. Others invented atomic and hydrogen bombs (probably less devastating than therapy and ads :) Some were Soviet atomic spies that reported back to the USSR. Much of American pre-war/post-war intellectual life is due to European refugees. It's interesting to posit what might have happened without the influx.

Saturnial22 2y ago
[flagged]
piombisallow 2y ago
And arguably much of current decline in intellectual standards in the public space is to blame on the integration and Americanization of their descendants.
- thruway516 2y ago
  Woah! what? Lol. Considering the number of nobel laureates, manhattan project scientists, turing award winners not to mention industry pioneers, prominent cultural figure etc that group has produced it would seem they did the opposite.
  - piombisallow 2y ago
    That's what I'm saying, read my comment again. America's highest intellectual achievements came after WW2, when there was the highest influx of European intellectuals (who studied in Europe, or were first generation). The current state of affairs is imo a kind of regression to the mean, where the culture that created them couldn't be reproduced in the US system - thus the integration and americanization of their descendants.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    I think they are essentially claiming that "Americanism" has lower standards than the ethnicities that moved to America as refugees. So the people who were refugees, like all the jewish physicists in the Manhattan project came from culture that valued higher education and socially liberal society and all those good things, while American culture doesn't, so getting them "americanized" makes them value higher education etc less. Which would be incorrect, as Manhattan ALSO has a hyper conservative Orthodox jewish population which did not assimilate largely and basically caused measles outbreaks because they are vaccine "hesitant"
frmersdog 2y ago
The world probably would have missed out on a lot, since American industry (and exploitation) funded their R&D. Additionally, the next generation of (American, born-and-bred) scientists and engineers took us from their breakthroughs to more recent ones. The amazing things that can happen when people who were able to get an education are paid and tasked with something other than selling ads and opioids.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > American industry (and exploitation) funded their R&D. Don’t forget that European industry was demolished in the war > when people who were able to get an education are paid and tasked with something other than selling ads and opioids. Efficient market!

lostlogin 2y ago

> If anything this highlights how important Vienna was pre-WW1 and how much that status has changed. The status might have changed, but the city remains beautiful, and is an amazing place to visit. It’s up there as one of my favourite places. The architecture, museums, galleries, food etc.

inglor_cz 2y ago
Vienna is nice, but also a has-been much like Rome or Athens is. Not just in raw power, but in intellectual capacity - its best minds are gone, or possibly underutilized and working some boring jobs. But given the Holocaust, I would bet on "mostly gone". (Same with Budapest, BTW. There won't be any new Jewish-Hungarian "Martians" like von Neumann or Teller.) The only pre-WWI European capital that remained truly globally relevant is London. Istanbul and St. Peterburg are also important megacities, though stripped of their capital status.
- archagon 2y ago
  How do you define global relevance? Plenty of European capitals in this list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_World_Cities_Research_Network https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_World_Citi...
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    Let us say "Top 10". In 1914, most of the Top 10 cities were in Europe. Today, London and Paris are.
- dlx 2y ago
  Interesting take. What in your mind are the top 10 intellectual cities of the current era?
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    This is really an interesting question. Plenty of culture war topics that currently shape the Western civilization originate in Berkeley or Boston.