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One of the worst books on this ever written was the very popular "Collapse" by Jared Diamond, which entirely neglects the role European colonialism played in de

One of the worst books on this ever written was the very popular "Collapse" by Jared Diamond, which entirely neglects the role European colonialism played in decimating the island's population in favor of a 'they did it to themselves' narrative (which apologists for colonialism naturally embraced). The more accurate historical narrative looks something like this: "In December 1862, Peruvian slave traders landed on Easter Island and captured approximately 1,500 Rapa Nui people, including much of the island's leadership and elite. The raids were brutal, and the kidnapped islanders were transported to the guano islands and plantations on the Peruvian coast. Of these 1,500 individuals, only a small fraction would ever return.Of the roughly 1,500 people taken, it is estimated that fewer than 100 survived to return home. By the mid-19th century, the island's population had been reduced to just a few hundred, down from an estimated 3,000–4,000 before the raids." The invention of ammonia synthesis from atmospheric N2 via the Haber-Bosch process largely put an end to the guano industy and the slave labor that supported it. There's an excellent book, "The Alchemy of Air" by Thomas Hager that covers this history well: https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/turning-air-into-bread https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/turning-air-into-bread

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
I am curious if Diamond has ever done an apology for his incorrect Easter Island theory in Collapse. As I understand it, at the time it was a reasonable conclusion (though even back then it was still highly controversial and lots of scientists disagreed), but in the decades since, it's become obvious this "ecoside" theory is wrong, and this latest study puts the nail in the coffin. So has Diamond ever said "There is new evidence, and I was wrong"? Or is he doing that weird thing that humans often do where they double down on a now obviously incorrect theory because admitting fault is somehow too painful?
- throw4847285 2y ago
  Well doing that would require Jared Diamond to be a serious scholar and not a pop historian who cares mostly about selling books.
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    I don't think there's an issue with being motivated by a desire to sell books. Selling poorly supported narrative-driven historical fiction as a work of pop history is potentially an issue though.
    - throw4847285 2y ago
      The problem is one often follows the other. If you're economically incentivized not to rethink your premises despite mounting evidence that they are wrong, it's hard to pivot.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  Well, Diamond is still a fervent believer in Clovis-First, despite the entire anthropological community having disavowed that theory about two decades ago.
- mzs 2y ago
  He's responded to criticism rather poorly: https://cambridgeblog.org/2010/03/puttin-the-objective-in-objectivity/ https://cambridgeblog.org/2010/03/puttin-the-objective-in-ob...
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    Not unlike Graeber.
    - vanderZwan 2y ago
      What does he have to do with the current discussion?
- circlefavshape 2y ago
  He said some reasonable stuff which seems less likely in the light of new evidence. What is there to apologise for?
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    Apologize is perhaps the wrong word, thank you. But has he come out and said "this new evidence means my older theories are wrong?" The other comment about his review of Questioning Collapse makes me think not, but even that was from nearly 15 years ago. I think it's important that Diamond acknowledge the new reality, as he is probably the person most responsible for spreading an idea (one that has a lot of implications for the present day real world) that turned out to be wrong.
  - jcranmer 2y ago
    His book was based on theories that were considered shoddy when he wrote it, is extremely selective in its evidence at best, and he reacts quite poorly to people who criticize his ideas on environmental determinism.
InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Shouldn't it be "turning energy into bread"?
Throw38384i 2y ago
[flagged]
- vanderZwan 2y ago
  The comment you replied to said European Colonialism, not European Slavers. Were these Peruvian slavers native Peruvians, who acted in accordance to the culture and society they had before Europeans arrived there? Or were they people who had moved to Peru from Europe as colonizers and who decided to keep the system of European colonialism after it became independent?
blueyes 2y ago
The irony is that the same underlying process of technical and scientific innovation enabled both the Peruvian slaves traders as well as the Haber-Bosch process. But I find it strange that we only call one "European", when in fact both were. The technium giveth and the technium taketh away.
circlefavshape 2y ago
> which entirely neglects the role European colonialism played in decimating the island's population Have you read the book? IIRC it does nothing of the sort
deleted 2y ago
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Nicholas_C 2y ago
And then after the slave raiders a Scottish sheep farm was established and they confined all the natives to one small area (Hanga Roa). The population is now highly mixed and only about half the current population are of Polynesian descent. They still have a surprising amount of traditions and knowledge recorded although the language is at risk of dying out. I visited Rapa Nui a few years back and it is an incredible place. The locals have been able to mostly resist commercialization of the island which I really appreciated. There is one "fancy" hotel on the island and the locals have put up a bunch of signs in protest[0] which I presume are still there today. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.150356,-109.4396352,3a,75y,150.68h,70.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipPfLjejzAxLvC07eYQeigGVVTrn_yzVynKcO-dZ!2e10!3e12!7i11000!8i5500 https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.150356,-109.4396352,3a,75y,...
stargazer-3 2y ago
For context, Diamond argues that the collapse occurred around 1600, much earlier than the 19th century slaving raids you mention. The first European contact occurred around 1720, with a 1770 Spanish estimate of 3000 people living on Easter Island. Honestly, it's not an outlandish thought that 887 gigantic statues were crafted by a larger population.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

I am curious if Diamond has ever done an apology for his incorrect Easter Island theory in Collapse. As I understand it, at the time it was a reasonable conclusion (though even back then it was still highly controversial and lots of scientists disagreed), but in the decades since, it's become obvious this "ecoside" theory is wrong, and this latest study puts the nail in the coffin. So has Diamond ever said "There is new evidence, and I was wrong"? Or is he doing that weird thing that humans often do where they double down on a now obviously incorrect theory because admitting fault is somehow too painful?

throw4847285 2y ago
Well doing that would require Jared Diamond to be a serious scholar and not a pop historian who cares mostly about selling books.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  I don't think there's an issue with being motivated by a desire to sell books. Selling poorly supported narrative-driven historical fiction as a work of pop history is potentially an issue though.
  - throw4847285 2y ago
    The problem is one often follows the other. If you're economically incentivized not to rethink your premises despite mounting evidence that they are wrong, it's hard to pivot.
jcranmer 2y ago
Well, Diamond is still a fervent believer in Clovis-First, despite the entire anthropological community having disavowed that theory about two decades ago.
mzs 2y ago
He's responded to criticism rather poorly: https://cambridgeblog.org/2010/03/puttin-the-objective-in-objectivity/ https://cambridgeblog.org/2010/03/puttin-the-objective-in-ob...
- slothtrop 2y ago
  Not unlike Graeber.
  - vanderZwan 2y ago
    What does he have to do with the current discussion?
circlefavshape 2y ago
He said some reasonable stuff which seems less likely in the light of new evidence. What is there to apologise for?
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  Apologize is perhaps the wrong word, thank you. But has he come out and said "this new evidence means my older theories are wrong?" The other comment about his review of Questioning Collapse makes me think not, but even that was from nearly 15 years ago. I think it's important that Diamond acknowledge the new reality, as he is probably the person most responsible for spreading an idea (one that has a lot of implications for the present day real world) that turned out to be wrong.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  His book was based on theories that were considered shoddy when he wrote it, is extremely selective in its evidence at best, and he reacts quite poorly to people who criticize his ideas on environmental determinism.

InDubioProRubio 2y ago

Shouldn't it be "turning energy into bread"?

Throw38384i 2y ago

[flagged]

vanderZwan 2y ago
The comment you replied to said European Colonialism, not European Slavers. Were these Peruvian slavers native Peruvians, who acted in accordance to the culture and society they had before Europeans arrived there? Or were they people who had moved to Peru from Europe as colonizers and who decided to keep the system of European colonialism after it became independent?

blueyes 2y ago

The irony is that the same underlying process of technical and scientific innovation enabled both the Peruvian slaves traders as well as the Haber-Bosch process. But I find it strange that we only call one "European", when in fact both were. The technium giveth and the technium taketh away.

circlefavshape 2y ago

> which entirely neglects the role European colonialism played in decimating the island's population Have you read the book? IIRC it does nothing of the sort

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Nicholas_C 2y ago

And then after the slave raiders a Scottish sheep farm was established and they confined all the natives to one small area (Hanga Roa). The population is now highly mixed and only about half the current population are of Polynesian descent. They still have a surprising amount of traditions and knowledge recorded although the language is at risk of dying out. I visited Rapa Nui a few years back and it is an incredible place. The locals have been able to mostly resist commercialization of the island which I really appreciated. There is one "fancy" hotel on the island and the locals have put up a bunch of signs in protest[0] which I presume are still there today. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.150356,-109.4396352,3a,75y,150.68h,70.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAF1QipPfLjejzAxLvC07eYQeigGVVTrn_yzVynKcO-dZ!2e10!3e12!7i11000!8i5500 https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.150356,-109.4396352,3a,75y,...

stargazer-3 2y ago

For context, Diamond argues that the collapse occurred around 1600, much earlier than the 19th century slaving raids you mention. The first European contact occurred around 1720, with a 1770 Spanish estimate of 3000 people living on Easter Island. Honestly, it's not an outlandish thought that 887 gigantic statues were crafted by a larger population.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]