4 ms·

The Art Of Niwaki (2017)

98 points by surprisetalk 2y ago

delichon 2y ago
I'm pruning trees in my yard this month, mostly pinyon pine. I looked up whether it's ok to remove pinyon branches that have no needles or if maybe they're just dormant. The consensus is: remove. My motivation is fire suppression. But they look better and the yard feels more peaceful to me after the treatment. I don't know why. Maybe I could study with the Japanese to understand it, but I'm not sure it matters.
- Maciek416 2y ago
  Pines have a hard time pulling on the water chain due to their needle design (silhouette/waxy coating). To move water to a location on a pine branch, you usually need needles or a strong tip bud that was already emerging just as the needles were lost (i.e. the needles already drew a lot of sap to that location just before their demise). If at a given junction you can trace to a descendant shoot that is green / has needles, then the live vein traces through that junction. If no descendant shoot with needles, you're looking at dead wood and inspecting under the bark won't find any trace of green cambium, or only fading cambium.
- contingencies 2y ago
  If you are aiming for your garden to provide habitat for birds and animals, human-aestheic-ifying all the things is not a good strategy. For instance, don't underestimate the habitat value of old limbs with hollows.
  - delichon 2y ago
    I don't have a garden, I have a yard that has only volunteers growing on it. I'm aiming to reduce the fire hazard. The human-aestheic-ifying is a side effect. I'm happy that removing an old limb not only reduces the fire danger but also makes it less pleasant for rodents, insects and rattle snakes to live near my house. They have caused many thousands of dollars in damage already. High wildfire risk here. When not if it arrives, it will destroy a lot more animal than human habitat.
nabla9 2y ago
The art of Baumschnitt (German tree pruning) The art of Trjáklipping (Iselanding tree pruning) Just go trough normal things people do in Japan and add title "Art of <activity in Japanese>" and it sounds exotic. For example: The Art of O shiri o kaku (お尻を掻く)
- YeahThisIsMe 2y ago
  Another good one is the famed "Zaratsu polishing" on watches, named simply for the manufacturer of the polishing machines (Sallaz).
- dbtc 2y ago
  But there is something Japanese about making an art out of regular little mundane things. Or perhaps bringing an art to them.
  - nabla9 2y ago
    The art of anal retentiveness :) (“Anal-retentive” is characterized by excessive concern with details, being obsessively tidy, punctual, and respectful of authority.)
    - egypturnash 2y ago
      The art of having enough slack in your life that you can spend hours and hours being concerned with the tiniest details.
  - gerdesj 2y ago
    Sometimes there is nothing deeper to an accurate cut than an accurate cut. Combine many accurate cuts and you may have art, Ikea, a film or a railway line.
- aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]
foreigner 2y ago
I know it's absurd but somehow I've always intuitively felt that this sort of gardening philosophy (and especially bonsai) is cruel to the plants. It's like we're forcing the plant to grow in an unnatural way by abusing it.
- surprisetalk 2y ago
  You might enjoy the philosophy Masanobu Fukuoka, who advocates for "do-nothing farming". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanobu_Fukuoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanobu_Fukuoka [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_farming
- istjohn 2y ago
  I think of it like combing the tree's hair. A tree sends out branches in all directions, but many of those branches are growing towards branches that are already there where the sky is already shaded. Many of them will naturally die off when they can't find enough light. We're just expediting the natural process and opening the tree up to the air and light. Ultimately, we're saving the tree from investing energy into dead ends and guiding its energy into the branches that can most effectively reach more open sky, which is what the tree really "wants." We're just acting as the tree's eyes to guide it.
- eilefsen 2y ago
  Pruning plants is very often good for them.
- timdiggerm 2y ago
  You have to remember that in the "natural world" (whatever that means), trees are damaged all the time by browsing animals, falling limbs of older trees, intense weather, falling rocks, etc. They and their ancestors have evolved under variations on those conditions for millions of years, and as such a lack of those things in a controlled garden or suburban environment is an unnatural way of growth. Our (imperfect) knowledge and judgement can allow us to, rather than provide an environment totally lacking those natural events, wisely prune trees in ways which help them grow stronger than they otherwise would. Although you may intuitively feel a certain way, feelings are sometimes wrong.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
istjohn 2y ago
Heron's Bonsai on YouTube has a few videos, e.g. [1], where he prunes garden trees and describes his thinking. There are just a few principles to learn: cut to discourage growth in a given direction and encourage growth in the other direction, remove growth that grows inwards and/or upwards, remove branches growing towards other branches, thin out growth to create visual separation between branches and to make the trunk and branch structure shine. After watching three or four videos, I felt confident enough to try my hand on some small trees. It's quite satisfying. The process is pleasantly engaging and relaxing once you push past the natural anxiety around cutting off a tree's limbs, and even a complete amateur can dramatically improve the appearance of a tree in a couple hours. 1. https://youtu.be/sIE882Lx1NQ https://youtu.be/sIE882Lx1NQ
- gerdesj 2y ago
  Gardener's World has been giving arboreal advice for decades in the UK on mainstream TV, along with what to stuff in your herbaceous borders. I also have rather more than a passing interest in bonsai (for 30+ years). You can't wire a full sized tree as you might with bonsai. Nor can you pinch growth in pines as you do in bonsai. Jins and saris etc would be butchery in full sized trees - to be honest I'm not keen on them in bonsai. When it comes to full sized trees, look a little closer. Notice all the insects, tiny mammals (if you can spot them), fungi etc. Trees become an environment of their own within the larger environment. There is nothing wrong with turning an environment into sculpture. At least you care about it! However, I recommend that you do not use bonsai rules to guide your full sized tree management.
vr46 2y ago
The very cool Bonsai dealer(?) I once bought a tree from summed the bonsai pruning tips for my limited memory as, (1) no criss-crossing branches, (2) nothing pointing down, and so far, those have proved very useful to me, but I've enjoyed reading more and more styles.
openrisk 2y ago
Never understood the human obsession with minutely controlling the shape of plants. There is enough we control already (with bad effect). Natural forms are just fine. Morphogenesis is one of the deepest unsolved mysteries, best enjoyed without poor derivative attempts at imposing additional symmetry etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

98 points by surprisetalk 2y ago

I'm pruning trees in my yard this month, mostly pinyon pine. I looked up whether it's ok to remove pinyon branches that have no needles or if maybe they're just dormant. The consensus is: remove. My motivation is fire suppression. But they look better and the yard feels more peaceful to me after the treatment. I don't know why. Maybe I could study with the Japanese to understand it, but I'm not sure it matters.

Maciek416 2y ago
Pines have a hard time pulling on the water chain due to their needle design (silhouette/waxy coating). To move water to a location on a pine branch, you usually need needles or a strong tip bud that was already emerging just as the needles were lost (i.e. the needles already drew a lot of sap to that location just before their demise). If at a given junction you can trace to a descendant shoot that is green / has needles, then the live vein traces through that junction. If no descendant shoot with needles, you're looking at dead wood and inspecting under the bark won't find any trace of green cambium, or only fading cambium.
contingencies 2y ago
If you are aiming for your garden to provide habitat for birds and animals, human-aestheic-ifying all the things is not a good strategy. For instance, don't underestimate the habitat value of old limbs with hollows.
- delichon 2y ago
  I don't have a garden, I have a yard that has only volunteers growing on it. I'm aiming to reduce the fire hazard. The human-aestheic-ifying is a side effect. I'm happy that removing an old limb not only reduces the fire danger but also makes it less pleasant for rodents, insects and rattle snakes to live near my house. They have caused many thousands of dollars in damage already. High wildfire risk here. When not if it arrives, it will destroy a lot more animal than human habitat.

nabla9 2y ago

The art of Baumschnitt (German tree pruning) The art of Trjáklipping (Iselanding tree pruning) Just go trough normal things people do in Japan and add title "Art of <activity in Japanese>" and it sounds exotic. For example: The Art of O shiri o kaku (お尻を掻く)

YeahThisIsMe 2y ago
Another good one is the famed "Zaratsu polishing" on watches, named simply for the manufacturer of the polishing machines (Sallaz).
dbtc 2y ago
But there is something Japanese about making an art out of regular little mundane things. Or perhaps bringing an art to them.
- nabla9 2y ago
  The art of anal retentiveness :) (“Anal-retentive” is characterized by excessive concern with details, being obsessively tidy, punctual, and respectful of authority.)
  - egypturnash 2y ago
    The art of having enough slack in your life that you can spend hours and hours being concerned with the tiniest details.
- gerdesj 2y ago
  Sometimes there is nothing deeper to an accurate cut than an accurate cut. Combine many accurate cuts and you may have art, Ikea, a film or a railway line.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]

foreigner 2y ago

I know it's absurd but somehow I've always intuitively felt that this sort of gardening philosophy (and especially bonsai) is cruel to the plants. It's like we're forcing the plant to grow in an unnatural way by abusing it.

surprisetalk 2y ago
You might enjoy the philosophy Masanobu Fukuoka, who advocates for "do-nothing farming". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanobu_Fukuoka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanobu_Fukuoka [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_farming
istjohn 2y ago
I think of it like combing the tree's hair. A tree sends out branches in all directions, but many of those branches are growing towards branches that are already there where the sky is already shaded. Many of them will naturally die off when they can't find enough light. We're just expediting the natural process and opening the tree up to the air and light. Ultimately, we're saving the tree from investing energy into dead ends and guiding its energy into the branches that can most effectively reach more open sky, which is what the tree really "wants." We're just acting as the tree's eyes to guide it.
eilefsen 2y ago
Pruning plants is very often good for them.
timdiggerm 2y ago
You have to remember that in the "natural world" (whatever that means), trees are damaged all the time by browsing animals, falling limbs of older trees, intense weather, falling rocks, etc. They and their ancestors have evolved under variations on those conditions for millions of years, and as such a lack of those things in a controlled garden or suburban environment is an unnatural way of growth. Our (imperfect) knowledge and judgement can allow us to, rather than provide an environment totally lacking those natural events, wisely prune trees in ways which help them grow stronger than they otherwise would. Although you may intuitively feel a certain way, feelings are sometimes wrong.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

istjohn 2y ago

Heron's Bonsai on YouTube has a few videos, e.g. [1], where he prunes garden trees and describes his thinking. There are just a few principles to learn: cut to discourage growth in a given direction and encourage growth in the other direction, remove growth that grows inwards and/or upwards, remove branches growing towards other branches, thin out growth to create visual separation between branches and to make the trunk and branch structure shine. After watching three or four videos, I felt confident enough to try my hand on some small trees. It's quite satisfying. The process is pleasantly engaging and relaxing once you push past the natural anxiety around cutting off a tree's limbs, and even a complete amateur can dramatically improve the appearance of a tree in a couple hours. 1. https://youtu.be/sIE882Lx1NQ https://youtu.be/sIE882Lx1NQ

gerdesj 2y ago
Gardener's World has been giving arboreal advice for decades in the UK on mainstream TV, along with what to stuff in your herbaceous borders. I also have rather more than a passing interest in bonsai (for 30+ years). You can't wire a full sized tree as you might with bonsai. Nor can you pinch growth in pines as you do in bonsai. Jins and saris etc would be butchery in full sized trees - to be honest I'm not keen on them in bonsai. When it comes to full sized trees, look a little closer. Notice all the insects, tiny mammals (if you can spot them), fungi etc. Trees become an environment of their own within the larger environment. There is nothing wrong with turning an environment into sculpture. At least you care about it! However, I recommend that you do not use bonsai rules to guide your full sized tree management.

vr46 2y ago

The very cool Bonsai dealer(?) I once bought a tree from summed the bonsai pruning tips for my limited memory as, (1) no criss-crossing branches, (2) nothing pointing down, and so far, those have proved very useful to me, but I've enjoyed reading more and more styles.

openrisk 2y ago

Never understood the human obsession with minutely controlling the shape of plants. There is enough we control already (with bad effect). Natural forms are just fine. Morphogenesis is one of the deepest unsolved mysteries, best enjoyed without poor derivative attempts at imposing additional symmetry etc.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]