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> US politics is mostly decided by money … banana republic shenanigans I think you’re struggling with hyperbole here. The CPI[0] suggests that the US is a litt

> US politics is mostly decided by money … banana republic shenanigans I think you’re struggling with hyperbole here. The CPI[0] suggests that the US is a little bit more corrupt than North West Europe, and in a different league from Latin America, Asia, and Africa. I’ve lived for over a year (and in one case, well over a decade) in three countries that are a rich shade of orange on the CPI, and suggesting the US is on the same level is laughable. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index > doesn’t seem low-level It gets you off a discretionary traffic violation charge, maybe, with no individual benefit to the officer making the call. Wake me up when you can buy one from an officer to stop them charging you with theft.

ceejayoz 2y ago
Scroll down to the "Transnational Corruption in States with High CPI Scores" bit on that article.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  It says, in summary: > Despite a high CPI score, [country, and presumably countries like it] has a poor record of prosecuting companies that bribe foreign officials to win contracts, as seen in the Nigerian oil bribery case. eg, rich countries have a nasty habit of turning a blind eye to their people bribing foreign officials. Regrettable, and hopefully more countries bring in legislation like the UK has, but not really pertinent to whether or not the US is a “banana republic”.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    It's pertinent to "perception and reality may not be the same thing" and provides an example of where CPI doesn't cover the whole story properly. Perception is subject to human factors; "practice x is corrupt, practice y is normal" may be the perception, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      Sorry, but this is a nonsense reply. I could literally use perception being subjective to prove or disprove anything. America has a money in politics problem and local corruption issues. On a global scale, it is incredibly incorrupt. We’re also somewhat unique among developed countries in having and enforcing the FCPA, which makes it more difficult for American companies to pay bribes overseas than many European ones.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        > I could literally use perception being subjective to prove or disprove anything. Which is why it often isn't a great metric. > America has a money in politics problem and local corruption issues. It has a systemic money in politics problem and systemic local corruption issues, with protections being systematically dismantled via an increasingly "pro-business" supreme court. > We’re also somewhat unique among developed countries in having and enforcing the FCPA... The FCPA has a massive loophole permitting "grease payments".
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Which is why it often isn't a great metric Everything is perceived at some level. Complaining about the subjectivity of perception can be taken to Cartesian extremes in proclaiming nothing is knowable. Corruption is a social phenomenon. Measuring perceptions is absolutely important. Particularly when the alternative is to say it's unknowable. > has a systemic money in politics problem and systemic local corruption issues, with protections being systematically dismantled via an increasingly "pro-business" supreme court Sure. The risk is we become a corrupt nation. But potential isn't present. > FCPA has a massive loophole permitting "grease payments" Sure. The point is most countries have no restrictions on their companies paying bribes overseas.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Corruption is a social phenomenon. So's what we define as corruption. If we normalize corrupt practices, they aren't necessarily perceived as it. Are think tanks a form of corruption? Is https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/14/593204274/alabama-sheriff-legally-took-750-000-meant-to-feed-inmates-bought-beach-house https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/14/593204274... corruption ? Is Citizens United? > The point is most countries have no restrictions on their companies paying bribes overseas. Which isn't really a huge point of differentiation given the loophole.
NoGravitas 2y ago
I think we in the US have a lot less low-level corruption than poorer countries, with large police departments being the outlier. But we also tend to deal with high-level corruption by regulating it, rather than banning it. Lobbying and campaign finance regulations are basically a framework under which some bribery is legal as long as it is done according to the correct procedures. We also have a problem with impunity: at a lower level, qualified immunity for cops, at a higher level, the Supreme Court declaring that there is no legal authority under which they can be held accountable for anything, as well as substantially raising the bar for holding presidents accountable.

ceejayoz 2y ago

Scroll down to the "Transnational Corruption in States with High CPI Scores" bit on that article.

petesergeant 2y ago
It says, in summary: > Despite a high CPI score, [country, and presumably countries like it] has a poor record of prosecuting companies that bribe foreign officials to win contracts, as seen in the Nigerian oil bribery case. eg, rich countries have a nasty habit of turning a blind eye to their people bribing foreign officials. Regrettable, and hopefully more countries bring in legislation like the UK has, but not really pertinent to whether or not the US is a “banana republic”.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  It's pertinent to "perception and reality may not be the same thing" and provides an example of where CPI doesn't cover the whole story properly. Perception is subject to human factors; "practice x is corrupt, practice y is normal" may be the perception, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Sorry, but this is a nonsense reply. I could literally use perception being subjective to prove or disprove anything. America has a money in politics problem and local corruption issues. On a global scale, it is incredibly incorrupt. We’re also somewhat unique among developed countries in having and enforcing the FCPA, which makes it more difficult for American companies to pay bribes overseas than many European ones.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > I could literally use perception being subjective to prove or disprove anything. Which is why it often isn't a great metric. > America has a money in politics problem and local corruption issues. It has a systemic money in politics problem and systemic local corruption issues, with protections being systematically dismantled via an increasingly "pro-business" supreme court. > We’re also somewhat unique among developed countries in having and enforcing the FCPA... The FCPA has a massive loophole permitting "grease payments".
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Which is why it often isn't a great metric Everything is perceived at some level. Complaining about the subjectivity of perception can be taken to Cartesian extremes in proclaiming nothing is knowable. Corruption is a social phenomenon. Measuring perceptions is absolutely important. Particularly when the alternative is to say it's unknowable. > has a systemic money in politics problem and systemic local corruption issues, with protections being systematically dismantled via an increasingly "pro-business" supreme court Sure. The risk is we become a corrupt nation. But potential isn't present. > FCPA has a massive loophole permitting "grease payments" Sure. The point is most countries have no restrictions on their companies paying bribes overseas.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        > Corruption is a social phenomenon. So's what we define as corruption. If we normalize corrupt practices, they aren't necessarily perceived as it. Are think tanks a form of corruption? Is https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/14/593204274/alabama-sheriff-legally-took-750-000-meant-to-feed-inmates-bought-beach-house https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/14/593204274... corruption ? Is Citizens United? > The point is most countries have no restrictions on their companies paying bribes overseas. Which isn't really a huge point of differentiation given the loophole.

NoGravitas 2y ago

I think we in the US have a lot less low-level corruption than poorer countries, with large police departments being the outlier. But we also tend to deal with high-level corruption by regulating it, rather than banning it. Lobbying and campaign finance regulations are basically a framework under which some bribery is legal as long as it is done according to the correct procedures. We also have a problem with impunity: at a lower level, qualified immunity for cops, at a higher level, the Supreme Court declaring that there is no legal authority under which they can be held accountable for anything, as well as substantially raising the bar for holding presidents accountable.