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> Developing software in particular has flummoxed VW. This is reminding me of Motorola, or really any of the old cell phone companies that were blown away by A

> Developing software in particular has flummoxed VW. This is reminding me of Motorola, or really any of the old cell phone companies that were blown away by Apple and smart phones. It was easier to get a company that was good at software to make phones, than it was to make a company that was good at phones to make software.

raverbashing 2y ago
Yup Hardware engineers (most of them, anyway) make awful software developers. They always get dregged on any slightly flexible process and higher level development.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  And when software engineers are allowed to built hardware, we end up using touchscreens to turn on our headlights. Whoever decided that we need an app to open our car doors was't a hardware engineer.
  - DanielHB 2y ago
    You use touchscreens to turn on your headlights because it is cheaper, touchscreens and embedded SoCs are so cheap these days that adding one to your car (as long as it is rectangular) is tons cheaper than wiring multiple buttons on your dashboard. The cost of programming those displays is relatively small and fixed, it doesn't get more expensive if you sell 1 million cars or 10. But these companies still haven't managed to have proper processes for the software platforms for their cars so the software ends up sucking. They treat their cars like video game developers, once done and released there might be a few patches. But the next car is mostly rebuilding the software from scratch. On an aside as more people are becoming aware that buttons and knobs are actually nice you will likely see them coming back, but only on the more expensive vehicles.
    - emsign 2y ago
      > On an aside as more people are becoming aware that buttons and knobs are actually nice you will likely see them coming back, but only on the more expensive vehicles. While the inflationary overuse for touchscreen is driven by cost (and fashion), it's not really like that buttons are coming back only in higher priced cars. Dacia being the cheapest European automaker uses lotsof buttons in their cockpits.
- bluGill 2y ago
  I can design hardware - but as a programmer I know I'm not very good with it and avoid it. I know when I design something it will be subject to things I barely understand like RF and cross talk. I could get a EE degree (either formally or just by self study), but that would be a lot of work and so I think it is better to not do that. Hardware developers fail to understand they are not very good at software and they don't understand the mess they are making.
readthenotes1 2y ago
Apple may have produced a few pieces of popular hardware before they produce the iPhone. I expect a more telling difference is whether the management of the successful company is overtaken by people who are better at political infighting than competing with other companies
- repelsteeltje 2y ago
  But wouldn't you agree that by the time of iPhone, Apple had had a fair share of political infighting and forgetting to compete with other companies too?
  - bluGill 2y ago
    At the time of the iPhone Steve Jobs made the iphone an important project and so political infighting was not done. There is always political infighting, but sometimes it can work for you.
  - rzwitserloot 2y ago
    Not really. Feels like orders of magnitude less than other companies of similar size. And still feels like that today. However, the fact that this sense of 'we are ALL and thus need not bother with anything but company-internal politics and how we influence the world at large' is missing at Apple is now hurting them: They appear to be pretty brazenly picking fights with governments thinking they are the david, and they.. really, _really_ aren't. One wonders why. * Lingering influence of Jobs? Even now? * Their somewhat well known weird corporate structure? * A cultural conviction that they are the underdog, instilled decades ago when Apple was doing badly, a conviction that is cherished with such religious fervour it survives even today when Apple has been top 3 market cap world wide, has reigned the profitability-in-cell-phones charts for over a decade, and in general has a profitability that makes your head spin, it's incomparably large (literally: Compare it to other big corps and it is mind boggling). I just don't know what it is. I find it remarkable that Apple does _not_ seem like it has had its fair share of political infighting and forgetting to compete. It has had its share of that, sure. But not its fair share. Not even a tenth.
- 2y ago
dzhiurgis 2y ago
I’ve just rented a toyota and it’s comical. How people keep buying this??? Car is perfectly fine (despite being an anaemic ICE), but damn fix your UX. People shit on Teslas touchscreen, but buttons on your Toyotas are worse - smaller, crowded and hard to discern. Audio connectivity feels designed by lawyers who wish you to crash car as quickly as possible (thinking about this loud - maybe it’s a good thing, like the tullock spike?)
- taneq 2y ago
  The last Toyota rental I drove (think it was a ‘22 or so?) sure had a smaller, less ‘app-like’ touchscreen and a lot of physical buttons, but I could use those buttons while driving. I’m giving this one to the Toyota. Edit: Your not meant to try and pair your phone while driving on any car.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  All cars I’ve rented in the last 5+ years have CarPlay/Android Auto, so it is all the same UX. Connect the phone via usb or Bluetooth, and I’m good to go. Can’t say that for Teslas.
  - phinnaeus 2y ago
    CarPlay is a handy crutch for cars with terrible software. Teslas have had generally good software.
  - ianbooker 2y ago
    This is exactly the Volvo / Polestar philosophy. There is a Decoder podcast with their CEO about just this sentiment.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    Except most cars I've tried had shite carplay connectivity.
- beowulfey 2y ago
  My 2019 Toyota has terrible UX. The higher end cars, particularly newer ones, are a little better (comparing Camry vs Corolla e.g.) but overall pretty bad. Would love to hear people's opinions on car UX though. The Tesla is terrible too, as are most newer car brands. I haven't minded Hyundai cars, and I recently drove a new Nissan that was decent.
nojvek 2y ago
Apple had iPod which was almost an iPhone already and they had decades of hardware and UX experience. They needed the cellular bits which they didn’t all build inhouse. Qualcomm is still the modem giant and Apple still uses them.
sunflowerfly 2y ago
This is true across many industries as well. For example, today’s SLR cameras have terrible software that is nearly impossible to change by anyone other than the manufacturer. I feel they should be a sensor and physical buttons with today’s phone hardware for brains. Let the user load custom software to control the hardware if they wish.
- paulmd 2y ago
  not only are they not going to do that, Sony’s android phones delete the firmware if you unlock the bootloader

raverbashing 2y ago

Yup Hardware engineers (most of them, anyway) make awful software developers. They always get dregged on any slightly flexible process and higher level development.

sandworm101 2y ago
And when software engineers are allowed to built hardware, we end up using touchscreens to turn on our headlights. Whoever decided that we need an app to open our car doors was't a hardware engineer.
- DanielHB 2y ago
  You use touchscreens to turn on your headlights because it is cheaper, touchscreens and embedded SoCs are so cheap these days that adding one to your car (as long as it is rectangular) is tons cheaper than wiring multiple buttons on your dashboard. The cost of programming those displays is relatively small and fixed, it doesn't get more expensive if you sell 1 million cars or 10. But these companies still haven't managed to have proper processes for the software platforms for their cars so the software ends up sucking. They treat their cars like video game developers, once done and released there might be a few patches. But the next car is mostly rebuilding the software from scratch. On an aside as more people are becoming aware that buttons and knobs are actually nice you will likely see them coming back, but only on the more expensive vehicles.
  - emsign 2y ago
    > On an aside as more people are becoming aware that buttons and knobs are actually nice you will likely see them coming back, but only on the more expensive vehicles. While the inflationary overuse for touchscreen is driven by cost (and fashion), it's not really like that buttons are coming back only in higher priced cars. Dacia being the cheapest European automaker uses lotsof buttons in their cockpits.
bluGill 2y ago
I can design hardware - but as a programmer I know I'm not very good with it and avoid it. I know when I design something it will be subject to things I barely understand like RF and cross talk. I could get a EE degree (either formally or just by self study), but that would be a lot of work and so I think it is better to not do that. Hardware developers fail to understand they are not very good at software and they don't understand the mess they are making.

readthenotes1 2y ago

Apple may have produced a few pieces of popular hardware before they produce the iPhone. I expect a more telling difference is whether the management of the successful company is overtaken by people who are better at political infighting than competing with other companies

repelsteeltje 2y ago
But wouldn't you agree that by the time of iPhone, Apple had had a fair share of political infighting and forgetting to compete with other companies too?
- bluGill 2y ago
  At the time of the iPhone Steve Jobs made the iphone an important project and so political infighting was not done. There is always political infighting, but sometimes it can work for you.
- rzwitserloot 2y ago
  Not really. Feels like orders of magnitude less than other companies of similar size. And still feels like that today. However, the fact that this sense of 'we are ALL and thus need not bother with anything but company-internal politics and how we influence the world at large' is missing at Apple is now hurting them: They appear to be pretty brazenly picking fights with governments thinking they are the david, and they.. really, _really_ aren't. One wonders why. * Lingering influence of Jobs? Even now? * Their somewhat well known weird corporate structure? * A cultural conviction that they are the underdog, instilled decades ago when Apple was doing badly, a conviction that is cherished with such religious fervour it survives even today when Apple has been top 3 market cap world wide, has reigned the profitability-in-cell-phones charts for over a decade, and in general has a profitability that makes your head spin, it's incomparably large (literally: Compare it to other big corps and it is mind boggling). I just don't know what it is. I find it remarkable that Apple does _not_ seem like it has had its fair share of political infighting and forgetting to compete. It has had its share of that, sure. But not its fair share. Not even a tenth.
2y ago

dzhiurgis 2y ago

I’ve just rented a toyota and it’s comical. How people keep buying this??? Car is perfectly fine (despite being an anaemic ICE), but damn fix your UX. People shit on Teslas touchscreen, but buttons on your Toyotas are worse - smaller, crowded and hard to discern. Audio connectivity feels designed by lawyers who wish you to crash car as quickly as possible (thinking about this loud - maybe it’s a good thing, like the tullock spike?)

taneq 2y ago
The last Toyota rental I drove (think it was a ‘22 or so?) sure had a smaller, less ‘app-like’ touchscreen and a lot of physical buttons, but I could use those buttons while driving. I’m giving this one to the Toyota. Edit: Your not meant to try and pair your phone while driving on any car.
lotsofpulp 2y ago
All cars I’ve rented in the last 5+ years have CarPlay/Android Auto, so it is all the same UX. Connect the phone via usb or Bluetooth, and I’m good to go. Can’t say that for Teslas.
- phinnaeus 2y ago
  CarPlay is a handy crutch for cars with terrible software. Teslas have had generally good software.
- ianbooker 2y ago
  This is exactly the Volvo / Polestar philosophy. There is a Decoder podcast with their CEO about just this sentiment.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  Except most cars I've tried had shite carplay connectivity.
beowulfey 2y ago
My 2019 Toyota has terrible UX. The higher end cars, particularly newer ones, are a little better (comparing Camry vs Corolla e.g.) but overall pretty bad. Would love to hear people's opinions on car UX though. The Tesla is terrible too, as are most newer car brands. I haven't minded Hyundai cars, and I recently drove a new Nissan that was decent.

nojvek 2y ago

Apple had iPod which was almost an iPhone already and they had decades of hardware and UX experience. They needed the cellular bits which they didn’t all build inhouse. Qualcomm is still the modem giant and Apple still uses them.

sunflowerfly 2y ago

This is true across many industries as well. For example, today’s SLR cameras have terrible software that is nearly impossible to change by anyone other than the manufacturer. I feel they should be a sensor and physical buttons with today’s phone hardware for brains. Let the user load custom software to control the hardware if they wish.

paulmd 2y ago
not only are they not going to do that, Sony’s android phones delete the firmware if you unlock the bootloader