7 ms·

“In fact, Buddhism, which had flourished in Bharat for 1600 years, suddenly vanished almost completely as soon as Muslims became masters of Delhi and started ra

“In fact, Buddhism, which had flourished in Bharat for 1600 years, suddenly vanished almost completely as soon as Muslims became masters of Delhi and started raiding the plains of Ganga.” Citation needed?

rramadass 2y ago
[flagged]
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - rramadass 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 2y ago
      You've broken the site guidelines repeatedly and badly in this thread. We have to ban accounts that do this, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. That means no personal attacks and no religious flamewar, among other things. I don't doubt that you know a lot about this and other topics but we need you to make your substantive points thoughtfully and respectfully.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        @dang; I understand your point (the letter) but disagree with its spirit. One should not tolerate attempts to intentionally "sweep under the rug" documented genocides and distort History just because it involves someone's Religion (their in-group). It is easy to be blind to genocides if one is not forced to face up to them, admit their faults and change their ways. Else the vicious cycle keeps spinning to the detriment of Society as a whole. Hence my forceful attempt to show up a person who intentionally was downplaying documented genocides. Note that most of my data/articles are from wikipedia (curated database and hence less susceptible to fake news/specific narratives/gaming) and not some opinion piece to push a narrative. As you are very well aware, there are insidious groups trying to game the system at HN (and elsewhere) to push their narratives. They are not interested in the Truth/Factual Data/Social Accountability etc. but are only interested in distorting reality to their benefit (see Orwell's essay on Nationalism). These people/groups need to be called out forcefully even if it means not obeying all rules of etiquette. It is in that spirit that i wrote my comments.
        dang 2y ago
        > there are insidious groups trying to game the system at HN (and elsewhere) to push their narratives. This sort of perception is common and has been common on HN for well over a decade, but I've rarely seen any evidence to support it. What there is evidence for—plenty of it—is users with different backgrounds misperceiving each other's comments as astroturfing/shilling/etc. because they simply can't imagine anyone holding those other views in good faith. The odds are high that this is what you're encountering. It's not some shady misinformation group; it's simply people with very different backgrounds than your own, who hold opposite views for legit reasons, just like you hold your own views for legit reasons. These are difficult historical topics that there's no consensus on. Here are a couple of long explanations I posted about this in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932851 (May 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725 (June 2021) You'll find links here to many years' worth of other explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... If you read some of those explanations and still have a question that I haven't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at answering it.
        rramadass 2y ago
        Nice writeups. While most of your reasoning/logic are valid i think you are missing a few crucial viewpoints which should be incorporated into your "HN filtration and decision-making" process. I presume you know of Nassim Taleb's "The Minority Rule", if not see his article The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority - https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... and video explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwlW2aamDFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwlW2aamDFc Any system can be gamed by an intransigent group by applying this rule under the guise of victimhood/false equivalence/even-handedness/appeal to authority/religion/PC/DEI/etc. Various language techniques like phrasing/tone/insinuation/instigation/support/oppose/etc. can be used to lead/sway/hint/push towards the group's viewpoint irrespective of Truth/Reality. In today's world all Human topics involve Politics/Propaganda/Manipulation/Spin/Gaslighting/etc. whether we like it or not. The effects of "events" (eg. HN comments) in these domains are non-linear (pareto/power law/etc.) and hence a single outlier can ruin everything i.e. you don't need an actual "shady misinformation group". I am not sure how HN does its moderation but i can guarantee that the above is happening in one form or another. I have seen this in threads to do with Russia-Ukraine war, Israel-Palestine issue, Boeing issues etc. As an example, you say; "These are difficult historical topics that there's no consensus on." which is factually incorrect given the wikipedia links i had posted. You have been manipulated to disregard Truth in the guise of even-handedness :-)
lenkite 2y ago
Buddhism was the tranquilizing death of India. You can argue that Islamic invaders would have conquered India anyways - but with Buddhism they rarely even had to fight! Their puzzlement is even captured in several journals where they could range for hundreds of miles and loot/burn with little to no resistance. And do it once again a few years later!
- rramadass 2y ago
  There is a stronger argument to be made that it was because of the establishment of Buddhism as the de-facto state philosophy/religion/practice in North/Northwest part of India that the Islamic invaders could conquer India. Buddhism for all its intellectual/ethical/moral strengths was not a pragmatic religion. It ignored the realities of Life in favour of higher ideals in a context ill-suited to its survival and hence paid the price at the hands of barbaric muslim invaders. This happened through the elevation of Ahimsa into an all-encompassing tenet of state policy which severely sapped the Martial Spirit of the population and thus could offer no resistance to invaders bent on genocide. Prior to Buddhism (and Jainism) while Ahimsa was considered one of the central pillars of Hinduism its limitations in the practical world were acknowledged and Kings were expected to protect by force if necessary, those practicing Ahimsa as a way of life. With this gone, North/Northwest India was easy prey to barbaric muslim invaders who did not play by the same rules.
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    In Sindh Buddhist regions yielded peacefully to Muslims as opposed to Hindus/Raja Dahir
    - rramadass 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        I’m not cherry picking, I’m citing this book - https://brill.com/display/title/2198 https://brill.com/display/title/2198 https://archive.org/details/religion-and-society-in-arab-sind https://archive.org/details/religion-and-society-in-arab-sin...
rramadass 2y ago
Plenty of citations/articles/books/links here; 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Indian_subcontinent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Ind... - From 986 CE, the Turks started raiding northwest India from Afghanistan, plundering western India early in the eleventh century. Forced conversions to Islam were made, and Buddhist images smashed, due to the Islamic dislike of idolatry. Indeed in India, the Islamic term for an 'idol' became 'budd'. — Peter Harvey, An Introduction to Buddhism ... According to William Johnston, hundreds of Buddhist monasteries and shrines were destroyed, Buddhist texts were burnt by the armies, monks and nuns killed during the 12th and 13th centuries in the Gangetic plains region. The Islamic invasions plundered wealth and destroyed Buddhist images ... The decline of Buddhism in the Indian subcontinent coincides with the spread of Islam in that part of the world, especially due to the Islamic invasions that occurred in the late 12th century. See sections "Turkic Invasions" and "Decline under Islamic Rule". 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists - See sections "Persecution by Muslim Empires" and "Persecution by Muslims". 3) And for good measure also read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

rramadass 2y ago

[flagged]

selimthegrim 2y ago
[flagged]
- rramadass 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 2y ago
    You've broken the site guidelines repeatedly and badly in this thread. We have to ban accounts that do this, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. That means no personal attacks and no religious flamewar, among other things. I don't doubt that you know a lot about this and other topics but we need you to make your substantive points thoughtfully and respectfully.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      @dang; I understand your point (the letter) but disagree with its spirit. One should not tolerate attempts to intentionally "sweep under the rug" documented genocides and distort History just because it involves someone's Religion (their in-group). It is easy to be blind to genocides if one is not forced to face up to them, admit their faults and change their ways. Else the vicious cycle keeps spinning to the detriment of Society as a whole. Hence my forceful attempt to show up a person who intentionally was downplaying documented genocides. Note that most of my data/articles are from wikipedia (curated database and hence less susceptible to fake news/specific narratives/gaming) and not some opinion piece to push a narrative. As you are very well aware, there are insidious groups trying to game the system at HN (and elsewhere) to push their narratives. They are not interested in the Truth/Factual Data/Social Accountability etc. but are only interested in distorting reality to their benefit (see Orwell's essay on Nationalism). These people/groups need to be called out forcefully even if it means not obeying all rules of etiquette. It is in that spirit that i wrote my comments.
      - dang 2y ago
        > there are insidious groups trying to game the system at HN (and elsewhere) to push their narratives. This sort of perception is common and has been common on HN for well over a decade, but I've rarely seen any evidence to support it. What there is evidence for—plenty of it—is users with different backgrounds misperceiving each other's comments as astroturfing/shilling/etc. because they simply can't imagine anyone holding those other views in good faith. The odds are high that this is what you're encountering. It's not some shady misinformation group; it's simply people with very different backgrounds than your own, who hold opposite views for legit reasons, just like you hold your own views for legit reasons. These are difficult historical topics that there's no consensus on. Here are a couple of long explanations I posted about this in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35932851 (May 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725 (June 2021) You'll find links here to many years' worth of other explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... If you read some of those explanations and still have a question that I haven't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at answering it.
        rramadass 2y ago
        Nice writeups. While most of your reasoning/logic are valid i think you are missing a few crucial viewpoints which should be incorporated into your "HN filtration and decision-making" process. I presume you know of Nassim Taleb's "The Minority Rule", if not see his article The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority - https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict... and video explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwlW2aamDFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwlW2aamDFc Any system can be gamed by an intransigent group by applying this rule under the guise of victimhood/false equivalence/even-handedness/appeal to authority/religion/PC/DEI/etc. Various language techniques like phrasing/tone/insinuation/instigation/support/oppose/etc. can be used to lead/sway/hint/push towards the group's viewpoint irrespective of Truth/Reality. In today's world all Human topics involve Politics/Propaganda/Manipulation/Spin/Gaslighting/etc. whether we like it or not. The effects of "events" (eg. HN comments) in these domains are non-linear (pareto/power law/etc.) and hence a single outlier can ruin everything i.e. you don't need an actual "shady misinformation group". I am not sure how HN does its moderation but i can guarantee that the above is happening in one form or another. I have seen this in threads to do with Russia-Ukraine war, Israel-Palestine issue, Boeing issues etc. As an example, you say; "These are difficult historical topics that there's no consensus on." which is factually incorrect given the wikipedia links i had posted. You have been manipulated to disregard Truth in the guise of even-handedness :-)

lenkite 2y ago

Buddhism was the tranquilizing death of India. You can argue that Islamic invaders would have conquered India anyways - but with Buddhism they rarely even had to fight! Their puzzlement is even captured in several journals where they could range for hundreds of miles and loot/burn with little to no resistance. And do it once again a few years later!

rramadass 2y ago
There is a stronger argument to be made that it was because of the establishment of Buddhism as the de-facto state philosophy/religion/practice in North/Northwest part of India that the Islamic invaders could conquer India. Buddhism for all its intellectual/ethical/moral strengths was not a pragmatic religion. It ignored the realities of Life in favour of higher ideals in a context ill-suited to its survival and hence paid the price at the hands of barbaric muslim invaders. This happened through the elevation of Ahimsa into an all-encompassing tenet of state policy which severely sapped the Martial Spirit of the population and thus could offer no resistance to invaders bent on genocide. Prior to Buddhism (and Jainism) while Ahimsa was considered one of the central pillars of Hinduism its limitations in the practical world were acknowledged and Kings were expected to protect by force if necessary, those practicing Ahimsa as a way of life. With this gone, North/Northwest India was easy prey to barbaric muslim invaders who did not play by the same rules.
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  In Sindh Buddhist regions yielded peacefully to Muslims as opposed to Hindus/Raja Dahir
  - rramadass 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - selimthegrim 2y ago
      I’m not cherry picking, I’m citing this book - https://brill.com/display/title/2198 https://brill.com/display/title/2198 https://archive.org/details/religion-and-society-in-arab-sind https://archive.org/details/religion-and-society-in-arab-sin...

rramadass 2y ago

Plenty of citations/articles/books/links here; 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Indian_subcontinent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_the_Ind... - From 986 CE, the Turks started raiding northwest India from Afghanistan, plundering western India early in the eleventh century. Forced conversions to Islam were made, and Buddhist images smashed, due to the Islamic dislike of idolatry. Indeed in India, the Islamic term for an 'idol' became 'budd'. — Peter Harvey, An Introduction to Buddhism ... According to William Johnston, hundreds of Buddhist monasteries and shrines were destroyed, Buddhist texts were burnt by the armies, monks and nuns killed during the 12th and 13th centuries in the Gangetic plains region. The Islamic invasions plundered wealth and destroyed Buddhist images ... The decline of Buddhism in the Indian subcontinent coincides with the spread of Islam in that part of the world, especially due to the Islamic invasions that occurred in the late 12th century. See sections "Turkic Invasions" and "Decline under Islamic Rule". 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists - See sections "Persecution by Muslim Empires" and "Persecution by Muslims". 3) And for good measure also read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus