4 ms·

Nothing to remediation or repair in this. So, observational in mice, gut is gut and probably a good analogue for any non-ruminating mammal. But, how to mitigate

by ggm 2y ago

Nothing to remediation or repair in this. So, observational in mice, gut is gut and probably a good analogue for any non-ruminating mammal. But, how to mitigate, how to repair, what to do afterward is missing. We need antibiotics. I don't want to go back into the world my parents lived in before they existed, I'd prefer to be in the world I was born into when they still had significant effect without wildcat over-use. Would phage therapy avoid the problem?

Valgrim 2y ago
I don't think this result reflects all antibiotic treatments: "RESULTS Oral antibiotic treatment disrupts the colonic mucus barrier" Intraveinous administration may or may not cause the same effect, or a similar effect. Maybe oral antibiotics is generally a bad idea because it disrupts the microbiome, but in other forms it's generally fine.
Mistletoe 2y ago
It’s not permanent. Just take your antibiotics and when you don’t need them your gut will go back to normal.
- jb1991 2y ago
  Source? This article doesn’t say anything about that.
  - theultdev 2y ago
    They are living, they reproduce. Damaged ones die off. That's why you're told to take yogurt/other fermented foods after taking antibiotics, to provide a reproductive environment for them to grow. However it's still a risk you could kill off a whole species and lose their function, so probably best not to take antibiotics unless you really have to. It's an easy analysis process though, you try to recover for a couple days, if you cannot and no virus is detected, you take antibiotics. If it's a bacterial infection and it's spreading you have to take antibiotics, otherwise you die and all of your microbes die with you.
    - jb1991 2y ago
      The other comments in this thread about the recovery aren’t as optimistic as you are. It seems there is significant damage and it takes quite a long time to recover, if it does.
      - theultdev 2y ago
        There's many variables, what kind of antibiotic, their biome before taking the antibiotics, what microbe species were killed and how many were harmed/killed, etc. There's only a few total comments in this thread overall, I counted 2 anecdotes, not exactly a scientific consensus. And people are more likely to comment when something goes bad than when something goes good *checks product feedback*
- Choco31415 2y ago
  For me that wasn't the case. I took antibiotics as directed by my dentist and it caused years worth of issues.
  - mikeodds 2y ago
    Dairy intolerance?
    - Choco31415 2y ago
      To clarify, I was on the medication for six months. It caused a gut condition that involved nausea, insomnia, and made it difficult to concentrate. It was also causing me psychologically to feel as if the rug had been pulled out from under me - I didn't know what I was doing anymore.
      - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
        How did you manage to go back to normalcy?
- majkinetor 2y ago
  It can take up to 2 years to recover your gut from AB. There are papers about it, cbb to find it now.
AmericanChopper 2y ago
Overprescription of antibiotics and overuse of antibiotics in agriculture have both been known as public health risks for decades. So perhaps a little more prevention is the best cure could help address this.
woke_neolib 2y ago
Two distinct classes of antibiotics (neomycin and vancomycin) seem to induce ER stress in colonic cells which decreases mucus production and increases risk of bacterial inflammation etc. The point is that there appears to be a direct effect on the host mouse physiology. There are other classes of antibiotics that do not have this effect, phage would likely be one of them (there is a theory that phage provided a persistent immunity by dwelling in the mucus).
ipaddr 2y ago
Not antibiotics are in the same class. If we could limit the fluoroquinolone class for none life threatening situations we can avoid some of the gravest issues. Limiting antibiotics with livestock to only sick animals would require allowing them to live in decent conditions which would make everyone healthier.
- itchyouch 2y ago
  This really needs to be broadcasted from the rooftops. Fluoroquinolones wreak massive havoc in their wake and should only be reserved for life threatening situations.

by ggm 2y ago

Valgrim 2y ago

I don't think this result reflects all antibiotic treatments: "RESULTS Oral antibiotic treatment disrupts the colonic mucus barrier" Intraveinous administration may or may not cause the same effect, or a similar effect. Maybe oral antibiotics is generally a bad idea because it disrupts the microbiome, but in other forms it's generally fine.

Mistletoe 2y ago

It’s not permanent. Just take your antibiotics and when you don’t need them your gut will go back to normal.

jb1991 2y ago
Source? This article doesn’t say anything about that.
- theultdev 2y ago
  They are living, they reproduce. Damaged ones die off. That's why you're told to take yogurt/other fermented foods after taking antibiotics, to provide a reproductive environment for them to grow. However it's still a risk you could kill off a whole species and lose their function, so probably best not to take antibiotics unless you really have to. It's an easy analysis process though, you try to recover for a couple days, if you cannot and no virus is detected, you take antibiotics. If it's a bacterial infection and it's spreading you have to take antibiotics, otherwise you die and all of your microbes die with you.
  - jb1991 2y ago
    The other comments in this thread about the recovery aren’t as optimistic as you are. It seems there is significant damage and it takes quite a long time to recover, if it does.
    - theultdev 2y ago
      There's many variables, what kind of antibiotic, their biome before taking the antibiotics, what microbe species were killed and how many were harmed/killed, etc. There's only a few total comments in this thread overall, I counted 2 anecdotes, not exactly a scientific consensus. And people are more likely to comment when something goes bad than when something goes good *checks product feedback*
Choco31415 2y ago
For me that wasn't the case. I took antibiotics as directed by my dentist and it caused years worth of issues.
- mikeodds 2y ago
  Dairy intolerance?
  - Choco31415 2y ago
    To clarify, I was on the medication for six months. It caused a gut condition that involved nausea, insomnia, and made it difficult to concentrate. It was also causing me psychologically to feel as if the rug had been pulled out from under me - I didn't know what I was doing anymore.
    - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
      How did you manage to go back to normalcy?
majkinetor 2y ago
It can take up to 2 years to recover your gut from AB. There are papers about it, cbb to find it now.

AmericanChopper 2y ago

Overprescription of antibiotics and overuse of antibiotics in agriculture have both been known as public health risks for decades. So perhaps a little more prevention is the best cure could help address this.

woke_neolib 2y ago

Two distinct classes of antibiotics (neomycin and vancomycin) seem to induce ER stress in colonic cells which decreases mucus production and increases risk of bacterial inflammation etc. The point is that there appears to be a direct effect on the host mouse physiology. There are other classes of antibiotics that do not have this effect, phage would likely be one of them (there is a theory that phage provided a persistent immunity by dwelling in the mucus).

ipaddr 2y ago

Not antibiotics are in the same class. If we could limit the fluoroquinolone class for none life threatening situations we can avoid some of the gravest issues. Limiting antibiotics with livestock to only sick animals would require allowing them to live in decent conditions which would make everyone healthier.

itchyouch 2y ago
This really needs to be broadcasted from the rooftops. Fluoroquinolones wreak massive havoc in their wake and should only be reserved for life threatening situations.