4 ms·

Note: This is absolute speculation - it has no evidence or even anecdotes around it.

wokkel 2y ago
But it does. The same holds for Google and stackoverflow: the majority of developers have trouble with sql.since the introduction of or mappers and plenty of other examples. Ask a junior dev about the difference between a stack allocated and a heap allocated object and be amazed.
- throwaway314155 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - qsort 2y ago
    I read comments like this all the time in all sorts of variants (we don't need math, we don't need CS theory, we don't need regexes, we don't need pointers). What do you people even do? Most of my work is with managed languages, but lower level concerns bubble up multiple times per project; you can't write great Python if you can't write decent C.
    - throwaway314155 2y ago
      i never said we don't need it. just that not everyone should be expected to know it and you don't need it except in particular situations.
  - fsloth 2y ago
    I'm not sure what type of code you develop but it sure ain't the entirety of the real world. In my corner of the real world we are quite concerned about the difference between stack and heap and profile our applications to pinpoint any opportunities for optimization in e.g. heap allocations. Like, most of the world runs on puny chips, and if the chips are not puny, the workloads are still going to eat up battery and contend with all of the other crap running on the end users device.
    - throwaway314155 2y ago
      sorry if i struck a nerve. i maintain that this is a domain specific skillset and that only specific types of coders really need that knowledge.
- hinkley 2y ago
  I haven't been able to read any brand of assembly since about 2010, and that was JVM not Intel. I still retained the 10000 foot view, and that mechanical sympathy has definitely helped me with fixing supposedly intractable performance issues with some regularity. Like a lot of things in education, there's an important distinction between learning something to use it, and learning it to appreciate or inform what you do with what we have now. Similarly there are processes we try to deploy 24/7 at work that I think would be better off being done for four weeks twice a year just to knock the cobwebs off of how we perform the job the rest of the year.
sgarland 2y ago
Carefully read through the points and tell me the author is wrong. Everything written is reasonable and logical. At a basic level, which of these two practices are more likely to result in you retaining information and learning: reading, writing, and debugging your own code, or copy-pasting someone else’s?
- dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
  > Everything written is reasonable and logical So was Ptolemy's model of the solar system. That doesn't make it right or valuable.
- deisteve 2y ago
  I think you're misunderstanding the author's point. They're not saying that AI-assisted coding is inherently bad, but rather that it can lead to a lack of understanding and retention of knowledge if used as a crutch. The analogy you're making between reading, writing, and debugging your own code versus copy-pasting someone else's is a good one, but it's not a direct comparison to AI-assisted coding. When you copy-paste someone else's code, you're still reading and understanding the code, even if you're not writing it yourself. You're still learning from it, even if it's not through the process of writing it. With AI-assisted coding, the issue is that the AI is generating code that you may not fully understand, and you're not necessarily learning from it in the same way. You're not reading and understanding the code, you're just accepting it as a solution. And that's where the problem lies. It's not about whether AI-assisted coding is good or bad, it's about how it's being used. If you're using it as a tool to help you learn and understand the code, then that's one thing. But if you're using it as a crutch to avoid learning and understanding the code, then that's a problem. So, to answer your question, I think it's more likely that copy-pasting someone else's code would result in you retaining information and learning, simply because you're still reading and understanding the code, even if you're not writing it yourself. But that's not the same as AI-assisted coding, where the AI is generating code that you may not fully understand.
  - sgarland 2y ago
    I don’t know where you’ve worked that people read and understand code they’ve copy-pasted, but I envy you. That has not been my experience.
speedgoose 2y ago
Yes I was hopping for a scientific study.
dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
It's not even well thought-out speculation. It's basically "old man rants at clouds." I'm pretty negative about the LLM hype, but this is just a low-effort, low-value "back in my day" rant.

But it does. The same holds for Google and stackoverflow: the majority of developers have trouble with sql.since the introduction of or mappers and plenty of other examples. Ask a junior dev about the difference between a stack allocated and a heap allocated object and be amazed.

throwaway314155 2y ago
[flagged]
- qsort 2y ago
  I read comments like this all the time in all sorts of variants (we don't need math, we don't need CS theory, we don't need regexes, we don't need pointers). What do you people even do? Most of my work is with managed languages, but lower level concerns bubble up multiple times per project; you can't write great Python if you can't write decent C.
  - throwaway314155 2y ago
    i never said we don't need it. just that not everyone should be expected to know it and you don't need it except in particular situations.
- fsloth 2y ago
  I'm not sure what type of code you develop but it sure ain't the entirety of the real world. In my corner of the real world we are quite concerned about the difference between stack and heap and profile our applications to pinpoint any opportunities for optimization in e.g. heap allocations. Like, most of the world runs on puny chips, and if the chips are not puny, the workloads are still going to eat up battery and contend with all of the other crap running on the end users device.
  - throwaway314155 2y ago
    sorry if i struck a nerve. i maintain that this is a domain specific skillset and that only specific types of coders really need that knowledge.
hinkley 2y ago
I haven't been able to read any brand of assembly since about 2010, and that was JVM not Intel. I still retained the 10000 foot view, and that mechanical sympathy has definitely helped me with fixing supposedly intractable performance issues with some regularity. Like a lot of things in education, there's an important distinction between learning something to use it, and learning it to appreciate or inform what you do with what we have now. Similarly there are processes we try to deploy 24/7 at work that I think would be better off being done for four weeks twice a year just to knock the cobwebs off of how we perform the job the rest of the year.

sgarland 2y ago

Carefully read through the points and tell me the author is wrong. Everything written is reasonable and logical. At a basic level, which of these two practices are more likely to result in you retaining information and learning: reading, writing, and debugging your own code, or copy-pasting someone else’s?

dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
> Everything written is reasonable and logical So was Ptolemy's model of the solar system. That doesn't make it right or valuable.
deisteve 2y ago
I think you're misunderstanding the author's point. They're not saying that AI-assisted coding is inherently bad, but rather that it can lead to a lack of understanding and retention of knowledge if used as a crutch. The analogy you're making between reading, writing, and debugging your own code versus copy-pasting someone else's is a good one, but it's not a direct comparison to AI-assisted coding. When you copy-paste someone else's code, you're still reading and understanding the code, even if you're not writing it yourself. You're still learning from it, even if it's not through the process of writing it. With AI-assisted coding, the issue is that the AI is generating code that you may not fully understand, and you're not necessarily learning from it in the same way. You're not reading and understanding the code, you're just accepting it as a solution. And that's where the problem lies. It's not about whether AI-assisted coding is good or bad, it's about how it's being used. If you're using it as a tool to help you learn and understand the code, then that's one thing. But if you're using it as a crutch to avoid learning and understanding the code, then that's a problem. So, to answer your question, I think it's more likely that copy-pasting someone else's code would result in you retaining information and learning, simply because you're still reading and understanding the code, even if you're not writing it yourself. But that's not the same as AI-assisted coding, where the AI is generating code that you may not fully understand.
- sgarland 2y ago
  I don’t know where you’ve worked that people read and understand code they’ve copy-pasted, but I envy you. That has not been my experience.

speedgoose 2y ago

Yes I was hopping for a scientific study.

dontlikeyoueith 2y ago

It's not even well thought-out speculation. It's basically "old man rants at clouds." I'm pretty negative about the LLM hype, but this is just a low-effort, low-value "back in my day" rant.