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The Golden Road: How Ancient India Transformed the World
- mahatofu 2y agoDid not expect to see this here. But I have been looking forward to this book for a while. I’m a big fan of William Darlymple. The Anarchy is my favorite of his.
- Fluorescence 2y agoI picked it up from the title alone because I was on a medieval history kick and I unreasonably expected it to be about... "The Anarchy"... you know, the period of history that actually goes by that name... but no. I was surprised and disappointed to find it was about The East India Company which I didn't have much of a hankering after. I still feel cheated! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy
- d13 2y agoAnd still, it’s one of the greatest works of popular history ever written.
- sidmitra 2y agohttps://archive.ph/kcVok https://archive.ph/kcVok
- vr46 2y agoVery good writer, but he personally wound me up with his public "Great Escape" from India during the pandemic and laid himself open to the criticism that followed, of being a fairweather friend.
- IncreasePosts 2y agoWhat exactly is the criticism here? He didn't strand himself in a particular densely populated foreign country while COVID lockdowns were happening across the world? He would be a better friend to India if he stayed there, contracted COVID, and put more strain on their healthcare system to the detriment of actual citizens?
- vr46 2y agoHis words, in the context of Indian, Britishness, colonialism, his own writing and the suffering of those he had left behind - he himself apologised for the message "being tone deaf & reeking with privilege" and I think it was quite reasonable that people were irritated by his posts of palm trees and sunny beaches while so few others had the choice. And secondly, he lives there, it was not a "foreign" country and he was not "stranded". He lives there.
- 1024core 2y ago> The great mathematician Aryabhata (476-550), in his masterwork composed when he was only 23, covers square and cube roots, the properties of circles and triangles, algebra, quadratic equations and sines, and contains a decent approximation of the value of pi at 3.1416. TIL...
- canfakt 2y agoThe man was certified genius, here are some more of his contributions to the world - Invention of Zero - Decimal Place-Value System - Astronomical Calculations - Understanding of Negative Numbers here is a good YouTube video on this subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgjcy04PDRM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgjcy04PDRM While we praise Aryabhatta man, i would like to shed some lights on Madhava of Sangamagrama c. 1340 - c. 1425 CE from India who less well known Key Contributions Infinite Series and Trigonometry Discovered power series expansions for trigonometric functions: Madhava's Sine Series: Infinite series representation for the sine function. Madhava's Cosine Series: Infinite series representation for the cosine function. Madhava–Gregory Series: Series for the arctangent function, predating James Gregory by over 200 years. Calculus and Mathematical Analysis Laid early foundations of calculus through: 200 years before Newton or leibniz Methods of term-by-term integration and iterative techniques for solving transcendental equations. Concepts related to the area under curves, similar to integral calculus. Introduction of convergence tests for infinite series. Creation of trigonometric tables with accurate sine and cosine values. The Jesuit missionaries in India played a crucial role in the transmission of advanced Indian mathematical and astronomical knowledge to Europe by learning local languages, collaborating with local scholars, and documenting key works, thereby significantly influencing the development of mathematics in the West.
- fuzztester 2y ago>contains a decent approximation of the value of pi at 3.1416. I read this somewhere earlier, in some article about the history of mathematics, maybe Indian, Chinese, or both: Take the number 113355 (easy to remember). Split it down the middle to get 113 and 355. Divide the latter by the former. E.g. in the Python shell: > print (355/113) Result: 3.1415929203539825 which is a slightly closer approximation to pi than 3.1416.
- echelon_musk 2y agoThe Guardian also published a promotional piece for this book if you can't get past the paywall of TFA. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/01/hidden-story-ancient-india-west-maths-astronomy-historians https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/01/hidden...
- d13 2y agoI’m reading this right now, and it’s excellent. Some amazing stories in there, like that of Wu Zetian, the real life Mother of Dragons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Zetian https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Zetian
- vjust 2y agoI guess the author, a historian, writes about ancient Indian mathematical contributions (a science of which he has no expertise presumably). These historical references I have learnt in various mathematical texts (the story of Fibonacci and al khwarizmi) - the journey across multiple centuries, of these innovations made by Aryabhata or Brahmagupta. As an Indian, and as a math aficionado (and degree holder) - I wonder, that was about 1500 years ago. In that era, a discovery (as you can read it) took 500 years to move from Arabia to Europe, thanks to Fibonacci's writing. Contrast it to today's instant dissemination of information and breakthroughs. Yes those were the glory days of Indian civilization. We have a Ramanujan every 100 years in India. Breakthrough ideas (earthshaking ones like the concept of 0) emerging out of India are few and far between. Around 1000 years ago, the fountain of (world-changing) creativity and ideas seems to have dried up, as far as India is concerned. Maybe it was the invaders , easy to blame everything on outsiders, though - what is India today was 600 or 400 odd kingdoms, frequently warring each other - so turmoil was always there. And if you were a reclusive monk in a forest with a bunch of students, no Brit or Mughal dude was stopping you from innovating. So, the big question is - can we explain why genius ideas stopped (without blaming British, or Mughals etc) - because thanks to Indian's instincts, the first step is to blame the Brits/Mughals , so problem solved, proved, ostrich is happy in the sand. I can only indulge in thought exercises , like : Aryabhata and Brahmagupta didn't have computers, didn't even have pencil and paper. They just sat there and thought. For months, or years. Or maybe they were walking. And gazed at the stars and observed and observed. And most likely, and importantly debated orally : endlessly with their teachers (in a monastery type place class sizes were small), peers- I believe this was a time in India's cultural history when debating, and disagreeing were positive things. In modern India, intellectualism has taken a back seat. To disagree is to be unpatriotic even. (Nalanda University comes to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda_mahavihara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda_mahavihara - not its modernized recreation which is likely going to be hardly attempting to break the mold). WhatsApp - the destroyer of brain cells by atrophy , has a grip on every mind. We read about the great Greek debates. We see videos of Tibetan buddhist monks practice debating in a monastery. Surely this kind of debating, face-to-face is missing in today's world (without getting angry) - this is the equivalent of the modern cafe in Paris or Vienna, with Godel and co. debating . This debating society , was Nalanda back a thousand years until invaders burnt every manuscript down and slaughtered every monk almost - except the manuscripts the Chinese monks took back to the Emperor in China - they are the only written records of life that remain, that and some arabic ones. Yet I hope new lotuses will bloom from India - we can never predict where the next genius or breakthrough idea will emerge from - why not Africa?
- aanet 2y agoWilliam Dalrymple is one of the finest historians and authors who has previously brought to life the story of East India Company and how it led to British India. In this book, he focuses on, among other things, how Buddhism spread all over. It's a fascinating topic. He also has a very successful podcast [1][2] -- with his co-host Anita Anand -- The Empire Podcast, which chronicles the rise and fall of empires. Highly educational, not to mention entertaining. Recommended!! [1] Empire Podcast - Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/empire/id1639561921 https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/empire/id1639561921 [2] On Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0sBh58hSTReUQiK4axYUVx?si=45f55308396846f5 https://open.spotify.com/show/0sBh58hSTReUQiK4axYUVx?si=45f5...
- whycome 2y agoI'm guessing that Anita Anand is not the one that was the Canadian Minister of Defense...
- gourabmi 2y agoI second the podcast recommendation. Empire pod has been truly worth every bit of the time. I am currently on the episode about History of coffee - ethiopia, ottoman turks etc.
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- selimthegrim 2y agoI am sure Sachar committee would have loved to hear about these Islamic overlords oppressing Muslims in India or having last Muslim majority state having statehood taken away
- csomar 2y agoI think he meant the Indians working in the Middle East.
- givemeethekeys 2y agoAnyone interested in Indian history and its interaction with the world should check out the Odd Compass channel on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@OddCompass https://www.youtube.com/@OddCompass) - it's really well done, entertaining and just makes you appreciate the world a little more - especially how interconnected we've all been, especially through trade.
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- sokz 2y agoIt's a fine surprise that I just ordered the book independently and then discovered the podcast and found the book being discussed on HN all in the same day. Pretty nice coincidence.
- sashank_1509 2y agoI’ve been fascinated with Indian history (mostly for selfish reasons to understand my lineage). My oversimplified summary has been, India has had 3 major golden ages in its history. The earliest was during the Mauryan Period. This is the age Dalrymple is talking about, the time of Aryabhatta, the popularization of Buddhism, arguably the time when most of the Indian epics were written (dating them has become notoriously political to the point that discerning the truth is hard now). This is the age Indian nationalists stress on, and the left wing tries to ignore. This age declines because the empire got too big, lost control and slowly disintegrated. The second age was during the Islamic golden age for India which the right tries to ignore and left stress on. My general sense is that there was a golden age of architecture, poetry and arts and probably not so much in Science. The Taj Mahal for instance was built during this time. This age declined mostly due to wars, the Mughal rulers were never successful in fully unifying India, even to the extent the Mauryans did. They fought consistent wars against pockets of resistance in the South, and towards the end began losing these wildly expensive wars (leading to a brief reign by Shivaji) The third golden age which no one wants to admit (left or right) is the British Golden age. There really was a renaissance in Indian thought in arts, science during British rule. This was when Indian history was “rediscovered”, first by British orientalists and then by mostly Indian Bengalis. CV Raman won the Nobel prize in science, Tagore won the Nobel prize in literature, Ramanujan etc, the names are numerous. The British rule also was the largest and most stable unification of India till the modern times. After 1850s there were almost no pockets of military resistance against the British rule. The British age declined with WW1 and WW2, and ended with Indian independence. Post independence was not a smooth going party. If you came to India during 1980s, you could argue independence had been a disaster with everything getting worse post independence. But since 1990s economic liberalization India has a new ish golden age with unique characteristics. Who knows how long this will continue and when it will inevitably end
- asdasdsddd 2y agoWhat do you think about Gupta india
- sashank_1509 2y ago
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoWow reading the comments here, there is so much in terms of invention and contribution that I wasn’t taught (in American schools). Given the importance of some of these contributions, I feel a bit shocked at how much is left out of our education in America (and I assume Europe) about what other cultures have provided. India in particular feels like a blind spot - they’re the largest country by population but also conspicuously missing. All you hear about is Gandhi, and even that is not covered well (in terms of the politics of colonization or the partition of India). It feels to me like it is purposeful - how else do you explain skipping out on all these math inventions that are critical to the modern world?
- d13 2y agoNot just that! For many hundreds of years there were over 250 ships a year trading between India and Rome, and tariffs on that trade alone accounted for 25% of the Roman Empire’s tax revenue. Among many other things, India fed the demand for transparent clothing, which was all the rage in the Roman Empire during that period.
- jltsiren 2y agoMany things are not taught in school, because basic education is short, and a lot of it happens before people's cognitive abilities have fully developed. The average kid probably spends about a year learning about society and culture, and much of it must be devoted to topics that are relevant to daily life in their own society. Back in Finland some decades ago, there was pretty decent coverage of India in three topics: world religions and the history of religion; European explorers, colonialism, and imperialism; and "modern" history with Gandhi, Nehru, the partition, and the wars. There were also some passing mentions in other topics. Overall, we probably spent more time on Indian history than American history.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> and a lot of it happens before people's cognitive abilities have fully developed. This is sort of trivially true, in that there is generally literally no point at which a person's cognitive abilities are "fully developed" (cognitive abilities being non-uniform in development, and some aspects of cognitive ability tending to continue developing until very late in life, long after most of the rest have been declining for quite a long time.)
- breadwinner 2y agoIn the West the numerals we use are known as "Arabic numerals" because it came from the middle east. But in the middle east the same numerals are known as "Indian numerals" because that's where they got it from. Similarly, algebra came from the middle east where it was called "al-Jabr" [1], but they in turn got it from India [2]. The invention of calculus is traditionally attributed to Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz. But this book [3] says calculus was brought into being in India in the 14th century by a mathematician named Madhava. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jabr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jabr [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/01/hidden-story-ancient-india-west-maths-astronomy-historians?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-1 https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/01/hidden... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/24/books/review/the-secret-lives-of-numbers-kate-kitagawa-timothy-revell.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/24/books/review/the-secret-l...
- acdha 2y agoThe Arabic-Indic numerals are especially neat because you can see how they evolved as they spread: https://persianlanguageonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/The_Brahmi_numeral_system_and_its_descendants-1.png https://persianlanguageonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07... Years ago I worked on a site which was translated into Arabic. Some of the early partners were adamant that we needed to use the Indic numerals everywhere, so I had localized all of our UI, including some JavaScript widgets and worked with a third-party to localize their embed. A few years later, they had a larger conference with a wider swath of the Arabic-fluent world represented and pretty much everyone said we should use what the English-speaking world calls Arabic numerals because most people were more familiar with them than the Indic numeral variants they didn’t use, and computers were making that even more pronounced.
- csomar 2y agoThe Arabic numerals are called Arabic because the Europeans got them from North African Arabs. They are different to the Indian numerals.
- srean 2y ago> They are different to the Indian numerals. Not in any mathematically significant way, except for the big endian little endian swap. In Indian system the units is specified first, then the 10s then the hundreds and so on. Arabs took the same system but they wrote right to left. That's why we write the numbers the way we do.
- pragmatic 2y agoAnyone know why the hardcover isn’t available until April 2025? I was super excited to read this book but I hate buying kindle books as it’s easier to share real books.
- rramadass 2y agoTangential but interesting - see also Sam Miller's idiosyncratic and funny book A Strange Kind of Paradise: India through Foreign Eyes.
- dartharva 2y agoDalrymple has a uniquely addictive style of writing that very few history writers do. I can't recall any other nonfiction book becoming such a page-turner for me as his "Anarchy" did. Terrific writer.