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>By not keeping logs, you are intentionally hindering law enforcement. This is why I keep a diary indicating every single person I've ever interacted with, alo

>By not keeping logs, you are intentionally hindering law enforcement. This is why I keep a diary indicating every single person I've ever interacted with, along with the date, time and place. It's a pain to do so and it takes up a lot of storage space and it makes people wary about interacting with me but I'd certainly never want to hinder law enforcement.

aniviacat 2y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment, you are arguing in bad faith. It is not a "pain" to set up logging. Most non-tor proxies implement logging. It would be a completely reasonable task for the tor project to implement logging by default. No one would be any more "wary" to interact with your tor node. Trusting your node not to log would be foolish anyway. So whether you make known that you are logging, or whether you claim not to log (but might secretly do anyway) doesn't make much of a difference. The storage space a log takes up is negligible (unless you keep logs for unreasonably long times) on anything but the smallest systems. And since running a tor node takes quite a bit of processing power, you won't be running your node on a system that can't handle a few megabytes of logs.
gretch 2y ago
>It's a pain to do so and it takes up a lot of storage space The perspective is that in order for these actions to be ethical, you must log the traffic, or you should not bother setting up the node. It's irresponsible to setup the node (which takes some amount of effort) but not do the precautionary part which makes it ethical. You can believe otherwise if you'd like, but this is an ethical framework applied to many other parts of our society and it's the thing that sets you apart from the ISPs, and generally it's the thing accepted by the public at large.
- throwai 2y ago
  I'd like to make the argument that "we" believe otherwise. It is legal to keep some logs for a limited amount of time if you run an IT service in Germany, mostly for the purpose of keeping the service running properly. If you have that data, you can give it to LE when they request it. The thing accepted by the public at large is often codified within a country's laws. German laws generally do not require you to store logs if you are an ISP. Storing them for too long can even be unlawful. There is no so called Vorratsdatenspeicherung anymore, and it is a recurring topic of political debate. So at least in Germany, the public view on storing data is more complex, and people don't believe not storing data or reducing the amount of data stored is clearly immoral when running IT services. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenvermeidung_und_Datensparsamkeit https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenvermeidung_und_Datenspars... On another note, if LE requests you to log specific access patterns in advance, you might have to do it. If your ISP services are really big (lots of users), you might even have to provide some sort of interface for LE. IMO and under certain interpretations of the involved laws, the German state could ask every single node operator in Germany to log everything, but the political backlash would be quite high.
numpad0 2y ago
This is why you enable location history for Google Maps. It had genuinely saved few honest people from false accusations.
- dmichulke 2y ago
  I'm stuck. Please add /s or the links or both.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Telescreen works both ways. That could come in handy if you truly have nothing to hide, or I suppose if what you are hiding must be within His tolerances. Chalmers sent a copy of his timeline to Premier Park Ltd, the company that charged him with the crimes, and the defendant was able to prove his innocence. The charges against him were dropped.[1] the lawyer met with the detective in order to show him screenshots of McCoy’s Google location history, including data recorded by RunKeeper. The maps showed months of bike rides past the burglarized home, NBC News reports.[2] 1: https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-maps-keeps-user-from-jail-and-from-paying-a-hefty-fine_id141275 https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-maps-keeps-user-from-... 2: https://news.sophos.com/en-us/2020/03/10/google-data-puts-innocent-man-at-the-scene-of-a-crime/ https://news.sophos.com/en-us/2020/03/10/google-data-puts-in... 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

aniviacat 2y ago

Unless I'm misunderstanding your comment, you are arguing in bad faith. It is not a "pain" to set up logging. Most non-tor proxies implement logging. It would be a completely reasonable task for the tor project to implement logging by default. No one would be any more "wary" to interact with your tor node. Trusting your node not to log would be foolish anyway. So whether you make known that you are logging, or whether you claim not to log (but might secretly do anyway) doesn't make much of a difference. The storage space a log takes up is negligible (unless you keep logs for unreasonably long times) on anything but the smallest systems. And since running a tor node takes quite a bit of processing power, you won't be running your node on a system that can't handle a few megabytes of logs.

gretch 2y ago

>It's a pain to do so and it takes up a lot of storage space The perspective is that in order for these actions to be ethical, you must log the traffic, or you should not bother setting up the node. It's irresponsible to setup the node (which takes some amount of effort) but not do the precautionary part which makes it ethical. You can believe otherwise if you'd like, but this is an ethical framework applied to many other parts of our society and it's the thing that sets you apart from the ISPs, and generally it's the thing accepted by the public at large.

throwai 2y ago
I'd like to make the argument that "we" believe otherwise. It is legal to keep some logs for a limited amount of time if you run an IT service in Germany, mostly for the purpose of keeping the service running properly. If you have that data, you can give it to LE when they request it. The thing accepted by the public at large is often codified within a country's laws. German laws generally do not require you to store logs if you are an ISP. Storing them for too long can even be unlawful. There is no so called Vorratsdatenspeicherung anymore, and it is a recurring topic of political debate. So at least in Germany, the public view on storing data is more complex, and people don't believe not storing data or reducing the amount of data stored is clearly immoral when running IT services. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenvermeidung_und_Datensparsamkeit https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenvermeidung_und_Datenspars... On another note, if LE requests you to log specific access patterns in advance, you might have to do it. If your ISP services are really big (lots of users), you might even have to provide some sort of interface for LE. IMO and under certain interpretations of the involved laws, the German state could ask every single node operator in Germany to log everything, but the political backlash would be quite high.

numpad0 2y ago

This is why you enable location history for Google Maps. It had genuinely saved few honest people from false accusations.

dmichulke 2y ago
I'm stuck. Please add /s or the links or both.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Telescreen works both ways. That could come in handy if you truly have nothing to hide, or I suppose if what you are hiding must be within His tolerances. Chalmers sent a copy of his timeline to Premier Park Ltd, the company that charged him with the crimes, and the defendant was able to prove his innocence. The charges against him were dropped.[1] the lawyer met with the detective in order to show him screenshots of McCoy’s Google location history, including data recorded by RunKeeper. The maps showed months of bike rides past the burglarized home, NBC News reports.[2] 1: https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-maps-keeps-user-from-jail-and-from-paying-a-hefty-fine_id141275 https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-maps-keeps-user-from-... 2: https://news.sophos.com/en-us/2020/03/10/google-data-puts-innocent-man-at-the-scene-of-a-crime/ https://news.sophos.com/en-us/2020/03/10/google-data-puts-in... 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE