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I can think of very few cases where the possibility of your home being raided by heavily armed police officers, and your property seized, is appropriate if it's

by gary_0 2y ago

I can think of very few cases where the possibility of your home being raided by heavily armed police officers, and your property seized, is appropriate if it's clear all you're doing is running software. (Side note: I'm surprised how often attitudes on this site are at odds with the "hacker" part of "Hacker News".) It is fair that running an exit node might be inconvenient, maybe even to the point where consulting a lawyer is advisable, but I think we should draw a hard line at direct threats to an innocent person's liberty, livelihood, and physical safety. That kind of fear is definitely an "undue burden".

lolinder 2y ago
Yes, I can agree that an armed raid or the threat thereof is definitely an undue burden. > it's clear all you're doing is running software. (Side note: I'm surprised how often attitudes on this site are at odds with the "hacker" part of "Hacker News".) I do not view software as amoral. It's a tool, and like any tool it is an extension of myself. Software that I run is acting on my behalf, and what my software is designed to do is something that I should be held morally accountable for. I'm not sure when the hacker ethos came to mean that "just running software" absolved you from having to account for the damage your software causes, but if that's what the hacker ethos is about then yes, you can count me out.
- gary_0 2y ago
  My point was that running any kind of software should not come with a presumption of guilt. But in the eyes of the establishment, it often does; see: Aaron Swartz, or how pressing F12 might be illegal[0], or many other such cases. A "hacker" should not have any sympathy for this kind of draconian knee-jerking. [0] https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/15/f12-isnt-hacking-missouri-governor-threatens-to-prosecute-local-journalist-for-finding-exposed-state-data/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/15/f12-isnt-hacking-missouri-...
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > should not come with a presumption of guilt Where is the presumption of guilt? A threat of violence was traced to their IP and they were served a subpoena to provide information that might lead to finding the threat actor before they actually hurt anyone. No one even accused OP of a crime, much less presumed their guilt.
    - gary_0 2y ago
      I don't mean in the judicial sense, I mean in terms of how they are treated by law enforcement.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        Again: where is the presumption of guilt in OP's case? They got subpoenaed, they enlisted help to respond, life went on. Their lawyers warned them to prepare as though a raid would occur, but that's the lawyers' job: to prepare their clients for the worst just in case.
goodpoint 2y ago
Hacker News is hacker like a hot dog is a dog
shadowgovt 2y ago
> (Side note: I'm surprised how often attitudes on this site are at odds with the "hacker" part of "Hacker News".) When computing became predominantly online, hackers inherited a moral dimension: the need to consider whether they are doing harm to others via what they do with the shared global network. It's a different story when you're cobbling scraps together in your basement, and it's a different story when you're primarily phone phreaking "the man," as it were.

by gary_0 2y ago

lolinder 2y ago

Yes, I can agree that an armed raid or the threat thereof is definitely an undue burden. > it's clear all you're doing is running software. (Side note: I'm surprised how often attitudes on this site are at odds with the "hacker" part of "Hacker News".) I do not view software as amoral. It's a tool, and like any tool it is an extension of myself. Software that I run is acting on my behalf, and what my software is designed to do is something that I should be held morally accountable for. I'm not sure when the hacker ethos came to mean that "just running software" absolved you from having to account for the damage your software causes, but if that's what the hacker ethos is about then yes, you can count me out.

gary_0 2y ago
My point was that running any kind of software should not come with a presumption of guilt. But in the eyes of the establishment, it often does; see: Aaron Swartz, or how pressing F12 might be illegal[0], or many other such cases. A "hacker" should not have any sympathy for this kind of draconian knee-jerking. [0] https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/15/f12-isnt-hacking-missouri-governor-threatens-to-prosecute-local-journalist-for-finding-exposed-state-data/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/15/f12-isnt-hacking-missouri-...
- lolinder 2y ago
  > should not come with a presumption of guilt Where is the presumption of guilt? A threat of violence was traced to their IP and they were served a subpoena to provide information that might lead to finding the threat actor before they actually hurt anyone. No one even accused OP of a crime, much less presumed their guilt.
  - gary_0 2y ago
    I don't mean in the judicial sense, I mean in terms of how they are treated by law enforcement.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      Again: where is the presumption of guilt in OP's case? They got subpoenaed, they enlisted help to respond, life went on. Their lawyers warned them to prepare as though a raid would occur, but that's the lawyers' job: to prepare their clients for the worst just in case.

goodpoint 2y ago

Hacker News is hacker like a hot dog is a dog

shadowgovt 2y ago

> (Side note: I'm surprised how often attitudes on this site are at odds with the "hacker" part of "Hacker News".) When computing became predominantly online, hackers inherited a moral dimension: the need to consider whether they are doing harm to others via what they do with the shared global network. It's a different story when you're cobbling scraps together in your basement, and it's a different story when you're primarily phone phreaking "the man," as it were.