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That's an extremely horrible story that I previously knew very little about. It was 60 years ago, but it felt a bit mentally violating to read it now (how Turin

That's an extremely horrible story that I previously knew very little about. It was 60 years ago, but it felt a bit mentally violating to read it now (how Turing was treated). It's worth noting that the claims by Copeland are seemingly just as unsupportable as those he's arguing against. For example this: "immediately after his conviction had told a friend: "The day of the trial was by no means disagreeable. Whilst in custody with the other criminals, I had a very agreeable sense of irresponsibility, rather like being back at school." "On the face of it, these are not the expressions of someone ground down by adversity." It's just as plausible that Turing was lying to his friend about his real state of mind. That's an extraordinarily common thing for people to do, and some do it no matter how dire their current circumstances. Copeland doesn't do a very good job of supporting the notion that it wasn't suicide (and it may well have not been).

epo 14y ago
We can't know, we will never know and all speculation is facile and pointless. Your speculation, based on nothing other than a BBC web page doubly so.
- adventureful 14y ago
  I wasn't speculating either direction about Turing's death, but what I said regarding Copeland's statement was correct. Judging someone's state of mind by what they project externally is not an accurate approach. Taking a single psych course would inform you of that, so would knowing someone that has committed suicide without the cliche external signals.
- andreasvc 14y ago
  By the same token we should give up on things like archaeology as well. We will never know for certain, but we can reason that given the evidence we do have, such and such is a likely scenario.
- gruseom 14y ago
  Not all speculation is pointless. There's a point in knowing that the evidence for Turing's suicide is inconclusive. A recent biography of Van Gogh challenges the evidence for his suicide too.
jberryman 14y ago
Right, if you look at what Tyler Clementi was saying on and offline before he committed suicide you'll see the same sort of thing. (not trying to draw too many comparisons here)
Someone 14y ago
Which of Copeland's claims do you dispute? I assume those statements about what he said at varous times a d about his chemical experiments are true. From there, I find Copeland's conclusion perfectly reasonable: "The thing is to tell the truth in so far as we know it, and not to speculate." "In a way we have in modern times been recreating the narrative of Turing's life, and we have recreated him as an unhappy young man who committed suicide. But the evidence is not there."* "The exact circumstances of Turing's death will probably always be unclear," Prof Copeland concludes."
ScottBurson 14y ago
It's just as plausible that Turing was lying to his friend about his real state of mind It's also plausible that he wasn't lying, but actually felt more cheerful having made the decision to end his life. This is also not unheard of. Still, Copeland makes an interesting case. I'm inclined to agree -- the fact that Turing had cyanide in his house, ostensibly for purposes other than suicide, makes accident seem at least equally plausible. It's tragic either way, of course.
- defrost 14y ago
  He was also a classic example of a British eccentric inventor, at one point he fashioned his own mercury delay lines for digital storage. I have no trouble at all with the notion that he (foolishly) had a small unventilated room with cyanide, mercury, bismuth, probably a small kiln furnace for metal casting, floor to ceiling racks of odds and ends and semi regular small explosions and benchtop melt downs. It's a lifestyle that's accidentally killed more than one person and it could very well have claimed Turing.
- eternalban 14y ago
  > It's tragic either way, of course. True. But the point being it may have been criminal, or perhaps not even remotely related to his sexuality.

epo 14y ago

We can't know, we will never know and all speculation is facile and pointless. Your speculation, based on nothing other than a BBC web page doubly so.

adventureful 14y ago
I wasn't speculating either direction about Turing's death, but what I said regarding Copeland's statement was correct. Judging someone's state of mind by what they project externally is not an accurate approach. Taking a single psych course would inform you of that, so would knowing someone that has committed suicide without the cliche external signals.
andreasvc 14y ago
By the same token we should give up on things like archaeology as well. We will never know for certain, but we can reason that given the evidence we do have, such and such is a likely scenario.
gruseom 14y ago
Not all speculation is pointless. There's a point in knowing that the evidence for Turing's suicide is inconclusive. A recent biography of Van Gogh challenges the evidence for his suicide too.

jberryman 14y ago

Right, if you look at what Tyler Clementi was saying on and offline before he committed suicide you'll see the same sort of thing. (not trying to draw too many comparisons here)

Someone 14y ago

Which of Copeland's claims do you dispute? I assume those statements about what he said at varous times a d about his chemical experiments are true. From there, I find Copeland's conclusion perfectly reasonable: "The thing is to tell the truth in so far as we know it, and not to speculate." "In a way we have in modern times been recreating the narrative of Turing's life, and we have recreated him as an unhappy young man who committed suicide. But the evidence is not there."* "The exact circumstances of Turing's death will probably always be unclear," Prof Copeland concludes."

ScottBurson 14y ago

It's just as plausible that Turing was lying to his friend about his real state of mind It's also plausible that he wasn't lying, but actually felt more cheerful having made the decision to end his life. This is also not unheard of. Still, Copeland makes an interesting case. I'm inclined to agree -- the fact that Turing had cyanide in his house, ostensibly for purposes other than suicide, makes accident seem at least equally plausible. It's tragic either way, of course.

defrost 14y ago
He was also a classic example of a British eccentric inventor, at one point he fashioned his own mercury delay lines for digital storage. I have no trouble at all with the notion that he (foolishly) had a small unventilated room with cyanide, mercury, bismuth, probably a small kiln furnace for metal casting, floor to ceiling racks of odds and ends and semi regular small explosions and benchtop melt downs. It's a lifestyle that's accidentally killed more than one person and it could very well have claimed Turing.
eternalban 14y ago
> It's tragic either way, of course. True. But the point being it may have been criminal, or perhaps not even remotely related to his sexuality.