4 ms·

It's not a standards problem but a market incentives one. Companies make too much money off expensive shitty proprietary batteries. It's the razor blade model +

It's not a standards problem but a market incentives one. Companies make too much money off expensive shitty proprietary batteries. It's the razor blade model + brand lock-in for powered goods, especially power tools and vacuums and such. They can sell you $5 worth of batteries inside a $80 plastic shell. No company is going to give that up willingly. If you standardized them, it'd be a race to the bottom and China would win. Maybe the EU would have that kind of willpower (like they did with micro usb) but it'd be politically impossible in the US, and every company from computer to power tool manufacturers would lobby against you.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
al_borland 2y ago
With power tools, it’s more than that. It’s not just that you keep needing to buy their batteries if they die. It’s that once you have the battery for one, you are much more likely to buy their other products when the need arises. That way you either have multiple interchangeable batteries, or you can save money by not needing to get another battery with the main product.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  You have to effectively marry your power tool provider to get worthwhile economies of scale. I wonder if there's a market for battery adapter-shims? (then they'd start doing HP-ink-level shenanigans, if they're not already). Looks like CharlesW answered my question before I asked it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41507481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41507481
  - erik_seaberg 2y ago
    This has been likened to a sorting hat for dads. https://x.com/andykreed/status/1741888763083604090 https://x.com/andykreed/status/1741888763083604090
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Green and red are technically under the same corporate owner. https://tool-kit.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/power-tool-brands-parent-companies.jpg https://tool-kit.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/power-tool-br...
      - xethos 2y ago
        Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw always seemed pretty much the same to me anyways
- j45 2y ago
  This is really true. Or you hold off on buying other tools because you want to be in a different battery/tool family. There are convertors for batteries though, so I should probably consider that.
- tzs 2y ago
  I'm not had much luck with the "save money by not needed to get another battery" part. The local stores have only had the tools in the bundles which include the battery and charger. Amazon has usually had the tool without a battery and charger but many more sellers had the tool with battery and charger and those were actually cheaper due to sale prices or due to the tool only not being Prime and having high shipping cost. So I've ended up with the 3 batteries and 3 chargers for my 4 Black & Decker cordless tools. (It's only not one for one because the first purchase was a bundle of a string trimmer and hedge trimmer with one charger and battery). I'll probably need to buy an oscillating multi-tool next summer and am thinking of going with something other than Black & Decker. That way the next time after that when I need a tool (probably a paint sprayer) my chances will be twice as good that I can find one unbundled that matches one of my existing battery systems.
- pxtail 2y ago
  Good thing is that once you decide to lock in into particular brand you can have interchangeable batteries for machines... Whoops.. What's that? New line of products with new battery standard?
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Manufactures don't do that often. They might have a couple different battery lines, but everytime there is a new standard buyers have opportunity to check out the competition. I standardized on Dewalt 20/60 volt tools, I don't even look at other brands anymore as then I need to invest in batteries when I already have plenty of batteries so Dewalt is almost always cheaper because I'm buying a tool without a battery, Sometimes a 12volt tool looks good (lighter), but so far I don't have any. If I ever do I'll be comparing all the brands (and their catalog) to see which I think is best, already having Dewalt 20 volt tools gives them no advantage (My dewalt radio can take 12 or 20 volt batteries, but that isn't enough of an advantage)
ok_dad 2y ago
> If you standardized them, it'd be a race to the bottom and China would win. Is China not making most of the world’s batteries at this time? I don’t think this is a reason not to standardize.
- kichik 2y ago
  You can still charge $80 for the proprietary plastic shell.
  - runjake 2y ago
    Yes. Which is epoxied shut and requires you to virtually destroy the shell to get to the cells inside as I recently discovered trying to refurbish my Dewalt batteries.
- solardev 2y ago
  Well, it's not just the country of origin on its own, but the branding of different companies. When you have bare cells, anyone can make them, and within a few years it'll all just be Amazon Basics or Costco batteries inside everything. When you add a plastic enclosure around those cells, suddenly it's a Makita or Milwaukee or whatever brand battery that their manufacturer can tightly control. I'm not arguing against standardization, BTW (as a consumer I'd love to be able to pop my headlight 18650 cells into my laptop or power tool), just saying that it's extremely unlikely because the financial forces against it are way too strong. And in the land of the free, our regulations are anything but. No way industry would let this happen, and no way our government is strong enough to unilaterally force it through.
  - dialup_sounds 2y ago
    Amazon and Costco would be a step up from what's in a lot of counterfeit tool batteries today.
niceguy1827 2y ago
> If you standardized them, it'd be a race to the bottom and China would win. I happen to be a manual razor shaver and I found your analogy to this field rather interesting. Safety razor is a standardized market where all blades will fit all razors, and yet 1. You don't see anyone selling their own proprietary blade size. 2. China doesn't actually win this market. A few well-known brands that I've used: Feather (Japanese), Merkur (German), Astra (Turkey) and now I'm trying some Indian blades.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  Well shaving has been around from 1000s of years, there isn't really any room to innovate, and the rechargable batteries have been around for ~150 years and improvements are still being made.
  - toast0 2y ago
    I mean, it felt like a joke in 2004 [1], but Gillete pulled off a 5 blade razor in 2005, and if that's not innovation in shaving, I dunno what is. [1] https://theonion.com/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-1819584036/ https://theonion.com/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-...
orev 2y ago
The market incentives work the other way too. While some companies are incentivized to put a lot of effort into making their own proprietary standard to lock you in, a lot of other cheap products have no incentive to make that effort as it adds cost to the process. It’s easier and cheaper to buy exactly what you need from the battery factory than it would be to study and properly implement a standard.
Yawrehto 2y ago
So, the same reason we can't all agree on one charging standard?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

al_borland 2y ago

With power tools, it’s more than that. It’s not just that you keep needing to buy their batteries if they die. It’s that once you have the battery for one, you are much more likely to buy their other products when the need arises. That way you either have multiple interchangeable batteries, or you can save money by not needing to get another battery with the main product.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago
You have to effectively marry your power tool provider to get worthwhile economies of scale. I wonder if there's a market for battery adapter-shims? (then they'd start doing HP-ink-level shenanigans, if they're not already). Looks like CharlesW answered my question before I asked it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41507481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41507481
- erik_seaberg 2y ago
  This has been likened to a sorting hat for dads. https://x.com/andykreed/status/1741888763083604090 https://x.com/andykreed/status/1741888763083604090
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Green and red are technically under the same corporate owner. https://tool-kit.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/power-tool-brands-parent-companies.jpg https://tool-kit.co/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/power-tool-br...
    - xethos 2y ago
      Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw always seemed pretty much the same to me anyways
j45 2y ago
This is really true. Or you hold off on buying other tools because you want to be in a different battery/tool family. There are convertors for batteries though, so I should probably consider that.
tzs 2y ago
I'm not had much luck with the "save money by not needed to get another battery" part. The local stores have only had the tools in the bundles which include the battery and charger. Amazon has usually had the tool without a battery and charger but many more sellers had the tool with battery and charger and those were actually cheaper due to sale prices or due to the tool only not being Prime and having high shipping cost. So I've ended up with the 3 batteries and 3 chargers for my 4 Black & Decker cordless tools. (It's only not one for one because the first purchase was a bundle of a string trimmer and hedge trimmer with one charger and battery). I'll probably need to buy an oscillating multi-tool next summer and am thinking of going with something other than Black & Decker. That way the next time after that when I need a tool (probably a paint sprayer) my chances will be twice as good that I can find one unbundled that matches one of my existing battery systems.
pxtail 2y ago
Good thing is that once you decide to lock in into particular brand you can have interchangeable batteries for machines... Whoops.. What's that? New line of products with new battery standard?
- bluGill 2y ago
  Manufactures don't do that often. They might have a couple different battery lines, but everytime there is a new standard buyers have opportunity to check out the competition. I standardized on Dewalt 20/60 volt tools, I don't even look at other brands anymore as then I need to invest in batteries when I already have plenty of batteries so Dewalt is almost always cheaper because I'm buying a tool without a battery, Sometimes a 12volt tool looks good (lighter), but so far I don't have any. If I ever do I'll be comparing all the brands (and their catalog) to see which I think is best, already having Dewalt 20 volt tools gives them no advantage (My dewalt radio can take 12 or 20 volt batteries, but that isn't enough of an advantage)

ok_dad 2y ago

> If you standardized them, it'd be a race to the bottom and China would win. Is China not making most of the world’s batteries at this time? I don’t think this is a reason not to standardize.

kichik 2y ago
You can still charge $80 for the proprietary plastic shell.
- runjake 2y ago
  Yes. Which is epoxied shut and requires you to virtually destroy the shell to get to the cells inside as I recently discovered trying to refurbish my Dewalt batteries.
solardev 2y ago
Well, it's not just the country of origin on its own, but the branding of different companies. When you have bare cells, anyone can make them, and within a few years it'll all just be Amazon Basics or Costco batteries inside everything. When you add a plastic enclosure around those cells, suddenly it's a Makita or Milwaukee or whatever brand battery that their manufacturer can tightly control. I'm not arguing against standardization, BTW (as a consumer I'd love to be able to pop my headlight 18650 cells into my laptop or power tool), just saying that it's extremely unlikely because the financial forces against it are way too strong. And in the land of the free, our regulations are anything but. No way industry would let this happen, and no way our government is strong enough to unilaterally force it through.
- dialup_sounds 2y ago
  Amazon and Costco would be a step up from what's in a lot of counterfeit tool batteries today.

niceguy1827 2y ago

> If you standardized them, it'd be a race to the bottom and China would win. I happen to be a manual razor shaver and I found your analogy to this field rather interesting. Safety razor is a standardized market where all blades will fit all razors, and yet 1. You don't see anyone selling their own proprietary blade size. 2. China doesn't actually win this market. A few well-known brands that I've used: Feather (Japanese), Merkur (German), Astra (Turkey) and now I'm trying some Indian blades.

bongodongobob 2y ago
Well shaving has been around from 1000s of years, there isn't really any room to innovate, and the rechargable batteries have been around for ~150 years and improvements are still being made.
- toast0 2y ago
  I mean, it felt like a joke in 2004 [1], but Gillete pulled off a 5 blade razor in 2005, and if that's not innovation in shaving, I dunno what is. [1] https://theonion.com/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-1819584036/ https://theonion.com/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-...

orev 2y ago

The market incentives work the other way too. While some companies are incentivized to put a lot of effort into making their own proprietary standard to lock you in, a lot of other cheap products have no incentive to make that effort as it adds cost to the process. It’s easier and cheaper to buy exactly what you need from the battery factory than it would be to study and properly implement a standard.

Yawrehto 2y ago

So, the same reason we can't all agree on one charging standard?