4 ms·

Is it common also for such... still white collar jobs I suppose to be paid by hour? In Europe, such jobs have always monthly salary in contract, or yearly, and

by jajko 2y ago

Is it common also for such... still white collar jobs I suppose to be paid by hour? In Europe, such jobs have always monthly salary in contract, or yearly, and basically nobody knows their hourly wage, since nobody pays them by hour worked. Consultants/contractors are a different story, but such employees here are normally perm employees.

CydeWeys 2y ago
I don't know if I would classify a bank teller position as being white collar. It's more of a service industry position, like being a cashier. And as such, hourly pay is appropriate as they aren't making enough to be exempt for salaried (hourly pay is actually better here as they're mandated extra pay for working overtime).
- randomdata 2y ago
  > It's more of a service industry position Banks are in the service industry (as is just about everything else; only resource extraction and manufacturing are excluded), so not just "more of". It is definitively a service industry position. > like being a cashier. The physical action of the work is a lot like being a cashier, but the environment in which the work is done is usually different, and that environment (especially with respect to the type of clothing the people usually wear within that environment) is what traditionally defines "white collar". As such, tellers are considered white collar by most people.
  - CydeWeys 2y ago
    Except crucially the pay isn't very good for tellers, whereas it's better for proper bankers / branch managers / etc. I think "does the job pay well" and "is it not manual labor" are both more important aspects of what white collar means than literally what you're wearing to do the job. I'm a FANG SWE and we mostly dress like slobs, but it's absolutely white collar despite the literal attire because it's a highly paid job in an office environment.
    - randomdata 2y ago
      Pay is clearly irrelevant. White/blue collar is not defined by pay. Certain tradesmen are earning as much as SWEs – sometimes even more – but are considered blue collar by most. Again, it is about the environment in which the work is done. Office environment is key to what you say. That is why you would be considered white collar. The literal white collars may be gone, but what you call "dressing like slobs" is just a modern adaptation of the same white collar idea. Now, as it pertains to tellers, banks are typically considered to be an office environment, thus why most consider them to be white collar.
      - room4 2y ago
        > thus why most consider them to be white collar You've claimed this twice, but I would guess that almost no one thinks a bank teller is white collar. Sure they work in an office environment, but their role is more similar to the cleaning crew than to the branch manager. Nothing about the day-to-day work in terms of autonomy, education, responsibility or any other key intangibles of the job match "white collar". It's akin to being a secretary or a mailman or working in a call center.
        randomdata 2y ago
        You'd guess wrong. We have record keeping around how most people use words, and according to those records "white collar" is used in this fashion of: "relating to the work done or those who work in an office or other professional environment." And you confirm that they work in an office environment, so that bit isn't in question. Perhaps you are confusing most with all? It is certain that not everyone sees "white collar" that way, but we're not talking about everyone.
short_sells_poo 2y ago
It seems to be a cultural thing. Perhaps by thinking about it hourly, it is implied that the contract is fully ephemeral and the corporation can nullify it on very short notice - which is certainly true in the US. Employee protections are much stronger in Europe and people get much better benefits (e.g. 5 weeks of paid vacation) even in these entry level positions. It's very similar in the UK where plenty of full time jobs try to act like some sort of temp thing. Salary quoted as hourly rate, zero contractual hours, etc. In other words, in all aspects the employee is expected to do whatever the company demands. If they demand zero hours worked, the employee will work zero hours, and if they demand 40 hours a week, that's what the employee has to work. In my view this should be basically illegal. Either make it a contract work where employees turn into service providers who can have multiple clients (that is true contractors), or make it full employment with pre-defined minimum hours worked so that the terms of engagement are clear for both sides.

by jajko 2y ago

CydeWeys 2y ago

I don't know if I would classify a bank teller position as being white collar. It's more of a service industry position, like being a cashier. And as such, hourly pay is appropriate as they aren't making enough to be exempt for salaried (hourly pay is actually better here as they're mandated extra pay for working overtime).

randomdata 2y ago
> It's more of a service industry position Banks are in the service industry (as is just about everything else; only resource extraction and manufacturing are excluded), so not just "more of". It is definitively a service industry position. > like being a cashier. The physical action of the work is a lot like being a cashier, but the environment in which the work is done is usually different, and that environment (especially with respect to the type of clothing the people usually wear within that environment) is what traditionally defines "white collar". As such, tellers are considered white collar by most people.
- CydeWeys 2y ago
  Except crucially the pay isn't very good for tellers, whereas it's better for proper bankers / branch managers / etc. I think "does the job pay well" and "is it not manual labor" are both more important aspects of what white collar means than literally what you're wearing to do the job. I'm a FANG SWE and we mostly dress like slobs, but it's absolutely white collar despite the literal attire because it's a highly paid job in an office environment.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    Pay is clearly irrelevant. White/blue collar is not defined by pay. Certain tradesmen are earning as much as SWEs – sometimes even more – but are considered blue collar by most. Again, it is about the environment in which the work is done. Office environment is key to what you say. That is why you would be considered white collar. The literal white collars may be gone, but what you call "dressing like slobs" is just a modern adaptation of the same white collar idea. Now, as it pertains to tellers, banks are typically considered to be an office environment, thus why most consider them to be white collar.
    - room4 2y ago
      > thus why most consider them to be white collar You've claimed this twice, but I would guess that almost no one thinks a bank teller is white collar. Sure they work in an office environment, but their role is more similar to the cleaning crew than to the branch manager. Nothing about the day-to-day work in terms of autonomy, education, responsibility or any other key intangibles of the job match "white collar". It's akin to being a secretary or a mailman or working in a call center.
      - randomdata 2y ago
        You'd guess wrong. We have record keeping around how most people use words, and according to those records "white collar" is used in this fashion of: "relating to the work done or those who work in an office or other professional environment." And you confirm that they work in an office environment, so that bit isn't in question. Perhaps you are confusing most with all? It is certain that not everyone sees "white collar" that way, but we're not talking about everyone.

short_sells_poo 2y ago

It seems to be a cultural thing. Perhaps by thinking about it hourly, it is implied that the contract is fully ephemeral and the corporation can nullify it on very short notice - which is certainly true in the US. Employee protections are much stronger in Europe and people get much better benefits (e.g. 5 weeks of paid vacation) even in these entry level positions. It's very similar in the UK where plenty of full time jobs try to act like some sort of temp thing. Salary quoted as hourly rate, zero contractual hours, etc. In other words, in all aspects the employee is expected to do whatever the company demands. If they demand zero hours worked, the employee will work zero hours, and if they demand 40 hours a week, that's what the employee has to work. In my view this should be basically illegal. Either make it a contract work where employees turn into service providers who can have multiple clients (that is true contractors), or make it full employment with pre-defined minimum hours worked so that the terms of engagement are clear for both sides.