4 ms·

The idea was that these big companies and the Irish government obey the law.

by quonn 2y ago

fullspectrumdev 2y ago
What’s interesting is the deal Apple got was fine under Irish law at the time. Nobody foresaw how things would pan out literally decades later.
- izacus 2y ago
  Irish law yes, EU law no. It's like saying that you couldn't forsee a state law overriding a lower level region/county law.
  - piltdownman 2y ago
    That's not how the EU works. To give just one major example, our constitution regularly overrules EU law - Ireland has to go to referendum for Treaties - e.g. The Lisbon Treaty.
    - quonn 2y ago
      EU law has precedence, period.
      - piltdownman 2y ago
        No, no it doesn't. The primacy of EU law is completely negated in a number of fairly basic instances - the common market first and foremost. Specifically for Ireland, we are the only EU member state that are obliged to hold public referendums on Treaties. Ratification of the Treaty in all other member states is decided upon by the states' national parliaments. Ireland, Netherlands, and Luxembourg also have veto powers when it comes to EU wide regulations. That's why Article 116 exists. You don't know what you're talking about.
        izacus 2y ago
        Your interpretation just lost in court, so who here doesn't know what they're talking about?
        piltdownman 2y ago
        It's literally enshrined in German Case Law as 'Identitätsvorbehalt'. The Polish constitutional court OUTRIGHT ruled that EU law does not supercede national law. Thus, primacy of EU law is wholly rejected in Poland. https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-eu-laws-clash-with-country-s-constitution https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-... I could go on, but responding to Dunning-Kruger commentary is a Pyrrhic battle at best.
        izacus 2y ago
        Why are you talking about Poland in Irish case now? :) A case which questions the ability of EU to override Polish consistution. Did you establish that corporate tax law is a consistutional issue? And note that the decision the tribunal has made that redress for differences between EU law and Polish law will have to be handled by: leaving EU, changing the constitution or changing the EU law. I'm not sure Poland wants to push that.
    - izacus 2y ago
      There are whole parts of EU law that always precede local law without the need for local harmonization. At least read up on basics of how EU works if you're going to debate law.
- quonn 2y ago
  > literally decades later. So given the time value of money, Apple still has an unfair advantage?
  - Nemo_bis 2y ago
    Actually Apple is supposed to pay interest as well, but it's probably going to be a very low "legal interest rate". From the original decision: ---- 1. Ireland shall recover the aid referred to in Article 1(1) from Apple Sales International. 2. Ireland shall recover the aid referred to in Article 1(2) from Apple Operations Europe. 3. The sums to be recovered shall bear interest from the date on which they were put at the disposal of the beneficiaries until their actual recovery. 4. The interest shall be calculated on a compound basis in accordance with Chapter V of Regulation (EC) No 794/2004. ---- https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dec/2017/1283/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dec/2017/1283/oj Linked in https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2024-09/cp240133en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/202...
piltdownman 2y ago
All tax treaties and agreements between countries (including intra-EU) are bilateral country to country agreements. Most are refreshed every 3-7 years based on OECD (or EU) recommended standards. Ireland's laws and treatment are 100% compliant. Rather than competing and reducing their tax rates countries like France prefer to moan, as politically they can’t be seen to favour big bad businesses. This of course was no problem with the EEC where Germany, France and the other ex-colonial powers made out like bandits selling their coal and steel to Ireland and the CT being paid there. Enter an English-language dominated SaaS economy from the 90s and they got caught out as they were more interested in domestic economic protectionism than dealing with the realities of a paradigm shift towards tech. We pivoted completely to an information economy and service based economy from a predominately agrarian one. Now have a look at the tech job market in 2024 in Dublin versus Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin, Barcelona etc.. If any one of our EU or the other non EU countries were really dissatisfied with Ireland, they have the right to withdraw at any time.
- quonn 2y ago
  Look, it's nice that Ireland is finally not a poor country anymore. That's primarily due to EU politics and support. It is, however, economically nowhere even close to France or Germany, no matter how large you think the "tech job" market there is [0]. > If any one of our EU or the other non EU countries were really dissatisfied with Ireland, they have the right to withdraw at any time. Who should withdraw from what? [0] For the facts regarding economic strength, read this document by the central bank of Ireland. https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/vol-2021-no-1-is-ireland-really-the-most-prosperous-country-in-europe.pdf https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/...
  - piltdownman 2y ago
    How could we be? We're not a post-colonial power like France or Germany who spent years exploiting the African continent in egregious human rights violations. It is literally only since 2021 that we have reached our pre-English Genocide population levels of 1851 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/ireland-population-surpasses-5m-for-first-time-since-1851 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/ireland-popula... Germany has 20x our population, France is not far off it. Neither has anything close to the job market per capita in the IT and Services sector that Ireland has. As for us dragging ourselves up, that has more to with our special relationship with the US. The EU were initially helpful with infrastructural development, access to a Common Market, and to drag us out of the Vatican Law era, but we gave up a huge amount of fishing rights to do so - massively enriching spain, portugal and france who had overfished their own waters. Note also we're not part of Schengen, but maintain a CTA (Common Travel Area) with the UK. Eventually the EU took the legs out from under us in 2008 and forced us at gunpoint to bail out unsecured german bondholders to maintain the integrity of the Euro and prevent a contagion run on German Banks. Irelands FDI sector was highly developed in the late 80s and combined with entities like Enterprise Ireland - ranked first in the world of venture capital investors by deal count in 2020 - hammered home the advantage via our highly-educated English speaking workforce and relatively low cost of living. Even now the number of investments completed by Enterprise Ireland was 42% more than its nearest competitor, French sovereign wealth fund Bpifrance.
dachworker 2y ago
The law forbids the rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. The law in the EU is written the France and Germany.
- tankenmate 2y ago
  "The law in the EU is written the France and Germany."; that is an overt oversimplification. Obviously France and Germany have more influence in the EU than other member states, but it is by no means a monopoly.

The idea was that these big companies and the Irish government obey the law.

by quonn 2y ago

The idea was that these big companies and the Irish government obey the law.

What’s interesting is the deal Apple got was fine under Irish law at the time. Nobody foresaw how things would pan out literally decades later.

izacus 2y ago
Irish law yes, EU law no. It's like saying that you couldn't forsee a state law overriding a lower level region/county law.
- piltdownman 2y ago
  That's not how the EU works. To give just one major example, our constitution regularly overrules EU law - Ireland has to go to referendum for Treaties - e.g. The Lisbon Treaty.
  - quonn 2y ago
    EU law has precedence, period.
    - piltdownman 2y ago
      No, no it doesn't. The primacy of EU law is completely negated in a number of fairly basic instances - the common market first and foremost. Specifically for Ireland, we are the only EU member state that are obliged to hold public referendums on Treaties. Ratification of the Treaty in all other member states is decided upon by the states' national parliaments. Ireland, Netherlands, and Luxembourg also have veto powers when it comes to EU wide regulations. That's why Article 116 exists. You don't know what you're talking about.
      - izacus 2y ago
        Your interpretation just lost in court, so who here doesn't know what they're talking about?
        piltdownman 2y ago
        It's literally enshrined in German Case Law as 'Identitätsvorbehalt'. The Polish constitutional court OUTRIGHT ruled that EU law does not supercede national law. Thus, primacy of EU law is wholly rejected in Poland. https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-eu-laws-clash-with-country-s-constitution https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-... I could go on, but responding to Dunning-Kruger commentary is a Pyrrhic battle at best.
        izacus 2y ago
        Why are you talking about Poland in Irish case now? :) A case which questions the ability of EU to override Polish consistution. Did you establish that corporate tax law is a consistutional issue? And note that the decision the tribunal has made that redress for differences between EU law and Polish law will have to be handled by: leaving EU, changing the constitution or changing the EU law. I'm not sure Poland wants to push that.
  - izacus 2y ago
    There are whole parts of EU law that always precede local law without the need for local harmonization. At least read up on basics of how EU works if you're going to debate law.
quonn 2y ago
> literally decades later. So given the time value of money, Apple still has an unfair advantage?
- Nemo_bis 2y ago
  Actually Apple is supposed to pay interest as well, but it's probably going to be a very low "legal interest rate". From the original decision: ---- 1. Ireland shall recover the aid referred to in Article 1(1) from Apple Sales International. 2. Ireland shall recover the aid referred to in Article 1(2) from Apple Operations Europe. 3. The sums to be recovered shall bear interest from the date on which they were put at the disposal of the beneficiaries until their actual recovery. 4. The interest shall be calculated on a compound basis in accordance with Chapter V of Regulation (EC) No 794/2004. ---- https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dec/2017/1283/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dec/2017/1283/oj Linked in https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2024-09/cp240133en.pdf https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/202...

piltdownman 2y ago

All tax treaties and agreements between countries (including intra-EU) are bilateral country to country agreements. Most are refreshed every 3-7 years based on OECD (or EU) recommended standards. Ireland's laws and treatment are 100% compliant. Rather than competing and reducing their tax rates countries like France prefer to moan, as politically they can’t be seen to favour big bad businesses. This of course was no problem with the EEC where Germany, France and the other ex-colonial powers made out like bandits selling their coal and steel to Ireland and the CT being paid there. Enter an English-language dominated SaaS economy from the 90s and they got caught out as they were more interested in domestic economic protectionism than dealing with the realities of a paradigm shift towards tech. We pivoted completely to an information economy and service based economy from a predominately agrarian one. Now have a look at the tech job market in 2024 in Dublin versus Paris, Frankfurt, Berlin, Barcelona etc.. If any one of our EU or the other non EU countries were really dissatisfied with Ireland, they have the right to withdraw at any time.

quonn 2y ago
Look, it's nice that Ireland is finally not a poor country anymore. That's primarily due to EU politics and support. It is, however, economically nowhere even close to France or Germany, no matter how large you think the "tech job" market there is [0]. > If any one of our EU or the other non EU countries were really dissatisfied with Ireland, they have the right to withdraw at any time. Who should withdraw from what? [0] For the facts regarding economic strength, read this document by the central bank of Ireland. https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/economic-letters/vol-2021-no-1-is-ireland-really-the-most-prosperous-country-in-europe.pdf https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/publications/...
- piltdownman 2y ago
  How could we be? We're not a post-colonial power like France or Germany who spent years exploiting the African continent in egregious human rights violations. It is literally only since 2021 that we have reached our pre-English Genocide population levels of 1851 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/ireland-population-surpasses-5m-for-first-time-since-1851 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/31/ireland-popula... Germany has 20x our population, France is not far off it. Neither has anything close to the job market per capita in the IT and Services sector that Ireland has. As for us dragging ourselves up, that has more to with our special relationship with the US. The EU were initially helpful with infrastructural development, access to a Common Market, and to drag us out of the Vatican Law era, but we gave up a huge amount of fishing rights to do so - massively enriching spain, portugal and france who had overfished their own waters. Note also we're not part of Schengen, but maintain a CTA (Common Travel Area) with the UK. Eventually the EU took the legs out from under us in 2008 and forced us at gunpoint to bail out unsecured german bondholders to maintain the integrity of the Euro and prevent a contagion run on German Banks. Irelands FDI sector was highly developed in the late 80s and combined with entities like Enterprise Ireland - ranked first in the world of venture capital investors by deal count in 2020 - hammered home the advantage via our highly-educated English speaking workforce and relatively low cost of living. Even now the number of investments completed by Enterprise Ireland was 42% more than its nearest competitor, French sovereign wealth fund Bpifrance.

dachworker 2y ago

The law forbids the rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges. The law in the EU is written the France and Germany.

tankenmate 2y ago
"The law in the EU is written the France and Germany."; that is an overt oversimplification. Obviously France and Germany have more influence in the EU than other member states, but it is by no means a monopoly.