3 ms·

Why is it Apple that has to pay for what Ireland did wrong? Genuinely curious here, it's not like Ireland is some random dude on the internet selling stolen goo

Why is it Apple that has to pay for what Ireland did wrong? Genuinely curious here, it's not like Ireland is some random dude on the internet selling stolen goods and Apple should've known better.

tomschwiha 2y ago
I guess it's within the power of legislation that the wrongly calculated taxes are now corrected.
- techpression 2y ago
  Sure, but Ireland doesn’t get the money, the EU does, so it’s not actually correcting the taxes but rather redistribute them, which seems like a bit of totalitarian approach to regulation. Ireland did not want the money back.
  - scandox 2y ago
    Ireland gets the money. The EU is making Apple pay us. And yes we didn't want it - mainly for reputational reasons and partly because our argument was "we never done it".
    - techpression 2y ago
      I stand corrected then, thanks. I was under the assumption this is like most legal wins for the EU that it goes into the pot to lower member fees.
      - dathinab 2y ago
        oversimplified you can think of it as Ireland is required to collect the taxes it always should have collected (but waved to get a competitive advantage for attracting tech giants and giving them in turn a competitive advantage over EU based competition) as a side note tax benefits to attract companies aren't perse illegal but what Ireland did went far beyond what is healthy/acceptable for the EU
noname120 2y ago
First line of the judgement: “Ireland granted Apple unlawful aid which Ireland is required to recover”
- techpression 2y ago
  But Ireland refused, so the fault still lies with Ireland in this case. I mean the EU is full of tax elimination or subsidies for targeted companies, far beyond this case, so it seems that this is more about Apple than the actual taxes.
  - izacus 2y ago
    What are you arguing exactly? This isn't punishment or fine, this is paying what they should have all along.
    - techpression 2y ago
      The target of the case is wrong, it should be Ireland, not Apple. Many companies have unique (to them) tax benefits across the entire EU, some hidden under things like “electricity subsidies”. If the company pay what the country mandates, then the rest should be between the country and the EU, not the EU and the company.
      - izacus 2y ago
        The target for this case is Ireland. They lost the case and now need to fix what they charged wrongly. Again, what are you arguing about?
        tmtvl 2y ago
        The argument is that because Ireland needs to recover money from Apple, Apple is going to have to pay that money, hence Apple is getting punished.
        2y ago
moss2 2y ago
I think this is a common practice in every country. If the tax payer is at fault, the tax payer pays. If the treasury is at fault, the tax payer still pays.
jeppester 2y ago
Apple is selling to the whole of EU. Is it unreasonable to conclude that they should have known to follow the EU laws rather engaging in a tax scheme offered by Ireland? I'm not entirely sure what to think myself about the fairness of this. But going forward I definitely prefer that corporations will have to be careful about engaging in unfair tax deals in the EU. Otherwise those corporations would just be looking for the next country to take advantage of - risk free.
- techpression 2y ago
  Amazon got away with it and so did Fiat, smaller sums and in Luxembourg and Netherlands, still, company specific tax deals based in country specific laws. Apple clearly picked the wrong horse, but unless there’s actual reform (which will likely cause a whole slew of other issues) the tax setup of multinational companies will carry on, maybe not risk free, but it’s still a win for them long term no matter what.
roel_v 2y ago
" and Apple should've known better." Of course Apple should've known better. Their lawyers warned them about the risks of these deals (I do not have internal knowledge, I just know they did, they do to everyone who enters into deals like this). For years (rather, decades) everybody bet on this being too widespread to be corrected like it is now. You can't really blame them for trying, but in the end, this is the corporate/tax version of 'fuck around, find out'.

Why is it Apple that has to pay for what Ireland did wrong? Genuinely curious here, it's not like Ireland is some random dude on the internet selling stolen goods and Apple should've known better.

tomschwiha 2y ago

I guess it's within the power of legislation that the wrongly calculated taxes are now corrected.

techpression 2y ago
Sure, but Ireland doesn’t get the money, the EU does, so it’s not actually correcting the taxes but rather redistribute them, which seems like a bit of totalitarian approach to regulation. Ireland did not want the money back.
- scandox 2y ago
  Ireland gets the money. The EU is making Apple pay us. And yes we didn't want it - mainly for reputational reasons and partly because our argument was "we never done it".
  - techpression 2y ago
    I stand corrected then, thanks. I was under the assumption this is like most legal wins for the EU that it goes into the pot to lower member fees.
    - dathinab 2y ago
      oversimplified you can think of it as Ireland is required to collect the taxes it always should have collected (but waved to get a competitive advantage for attracting tech giants and giving them in turn a competitive advantage over EU based competition) as a side note tax benefits to attract companies aren't perse illegal but what Ireland did went far beyond what is healthy/acceptable for the EU

noname120 2y ago

First line of the judgement: “Ireland granted Apple unlawful aid which Ireland is required to recover”

techpression 2y ago
But Ireland refused, so the fault still lies with Ireland in this case. I mean the EU is full of tax elimination or subsidies for targeted companies, far beyond this case, so it seems that this is more about Apple than the actual taxes.
- izacus 2y ago
  What are you arguing exactly? This isn't punishment or fine, this is paying what they should have all along.
  - techpression 2y ago
    The target of the case is wrong, it should be Ireland, not Apple. Many companies have unique (to them) tax benefits across the entire EU, some hidden under things like “electricity subsidies”. If the company pay what the country mandates, then the rest should be between the country and the EU, not the EU and the company.
    - izacus 2y ago
      The target for this case is Ireland. They lost the case and now need to fix what they charged wrongly. Again, what are you arguing about?
      - tmtvl 2y ago
        The argument is that because Ireland needs to recover money from Apple, Apple is going to have to pay that money, hence Apple is getting punished.
        2y ago

moss2 2y ago

I think this is a common practice in every country. If the tax payer is at fault, the tax payer pays. If the treasury is at fault, the tax payer still pays.

jeppester 2y ago

Apple is selling to the whole of EU. Is it unreasonable to conclude that they should have known to follow the EU laws rather engaging in a tax scheme offered by Ireland? I'm not entirely sure what to think myself about the fairness of this. But going forward I definitely prefer that corporations will have to be careful about engaging in unfair tax deals in the EU. Otherwise those corporations would just be looking for the next country to take advantage of - risk free.

techpression 2y ago
Amazon got away with it and so did Fiat, smaller sums and in Luxembourg and Netherlands, still, company specific tax deals based in country specific laws. Apple clearly picked the wrong horse, but unless there’s actual reform (which will likely cause a whole slew of other issues) the tax setup of multinational companies will carry on, maybe not risk free, but it’s still a win for them long term no matter what.

roel_v 2y ago

" and Apple should've known better." Of course Apple should've known better. Their lawyers warned them about the risks of these deals (I do not have internal knowledge, I just know they did, they do to everyone who enters into deals like this). For years (rather, decades) everybody bet on this being too widespread to be corrected like it is now. You can't really blame them for trying, but in the end, this is the corporate/tax version of 'fuck around, find out'.