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I'm sure it's due to plenty of things the US has done. In the end, people are often unable to hold conflicting ideas in their head. So it ends up being "the US

by Sakos 2y ago

I'm sure it's due to plenty of things the US has done. In the end, people are often unable to hold conflicting ideas in their head. So it ends up being "the US invaded Iraq so the US is always bad and Russia isn't bad because they aren't the US". There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I also attribute much of this to Chomsky, who spent the past 50 years railing on US imperialism, but never updated his world views when the cold war ended. I used to devour everything he said and wrote until I realized, you know, maybe there are other bad guys too and it's not all the US's fault (like Russia).

shiroiushi 2y ago
>Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I never said it does. It certainly doesn't. But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. >There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Like what? The only thing I can see is that Iraq was run by a crappy dictator, while Ukraine was a troubled and corrupt democracy. Otherwise, it was really just as bad. The US's claim that Saddam was working with Al Qaeda on a WMD program is probably even more absurd than Russia's claim that Nazis are running Ukraine. >maybe there are other bad guys too Basically all the major powers are bad guys. Some are just worse than others. In the mid-2000s, the US was the worst; today, Russia is the worst with China a close 2nd (constantly threatening an invasion of Taiwan and bullying their SCS neighbors).
- aguaviva 2y ago
  But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. You know, you can also just completely ignore whatever "the US says" about the topic (or supposedly says based on whatever news feeds seem to be bubbling up for you in the last 10 minutes). Both its narratives and its moral posturing. In fact, you basically go on with most of your life if the big bad ole' USA never existed at all. Even if you happen to be stuck living there for some dumb reason. And instead just do your own research -- ideally grounded in lots and lots of solid history, but also along other axes, such as talking to people actually from either of these other much more fascinating places, and even (if it seems safe for you to do so) visiting them yourself. And then come to your own views about how bad and evil Russia (or whichever putatively evil thing) is or is not, on its own merits (or lack thereof). Completely without reference to whatever "the US" supposedly has to say about anything. In general this whole emphasis on "hypocrisy" is really not useful in terms of making useful judgements about what actually happened in the world, or why. On the whole it seems to serve no other purpose than to cloud people's minds, promote anxiety ... and get them to start ruminating, fulminating and devoting way too much energy on the topic of whether a certain person (or an entire country, allegedly) is "hypocritical" about a certain putatively evil thing on the world -- rather than the actual facts and etiology of the actual putatively evil thing in itself.
  - Sakos 2y ago
    This is a great argument. One just has to go to countries like Ukraine and the Baltic states to see what people think about Russia. Russia is an existential threat for these people. Not just some ideological opponent in global politics. The illegal invasion of Iraq doesn't change this. It doesn't change how Ukrainians are affected by Russia's war on them.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. I don’t remember US trying to re-establish its long gone failed empire that collapsed under its own weight. > The only thing I can see is that Iraq was run by a crappy dictator, while Ukraine was a troubled and corrupt democracy. “The only” > Otherwise, it was really just as bad. Just as bad? Don’t be ridiculous, Jesus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes And the war isn’t over yet! I can’t imagine how much more shitshow is happening in the background in occupied territories and how much has already happened in 10 years. > The US's claim that Saddam was working with Al Qaeda on a WMD program is probably even more absurd than Russia's claim that Nazis are running Ukraine. For an outside viewer, first one looks far more plausible than the second one. > Basically all the major powers are bad guys. Some are just worse than others. In the mid-2000s, the US was the worst; today, Russia is the worst with China a close 2nd (constantly threatening an invasion of Taiwan and bullying their SCS neighbors). No, US wasn’t the worst in 2000s. Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, Ukraine. https://istpublishing.org/en/russian-colonialism-101-maksym-eristavi https://istpublishing.org/en/russian-colonialism-101-maksym-... Not even talking about terror on her own people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politk... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster And many more.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >I don’t remember US trying to re-establish its long gone failed empire that collapsed under its own weight. No, it was trying to maintain an empire of sorts. >“The only” What difference do you see in the justification for these wars? >Just as bad? Don’t be ridiculous, Jesus. I'm not. It's just as bad. I'm not talking about war crimes; if you had bothered to read more carefully, you'd see I was talking about justifications for the wars, not how the wars were actually conducted once underway. Of course, the US did far better. >For an outside viewer, first one looks far more plausible than the second one. How so? Any fool could see at the time that there were no WMD, that the US was rushing to a war on flimsy evidence, and the whole idea that Saddam was in league with Al Qaeda was simply made up, when all the hijackers were actually from Saudi Arabia. I could see it was all BS at the time, and I was just someone watching the news. >No, US wasn’t the worst in 2000s. I'm pretty sure the US invasion of Iraq resulted in more civilian deaths than Russia's actions in the 2000s. And how is the Kursk incident evidence of some kind of evil? It was incompetence and stupidity, sure, but it was an accident: it's not like Russia's government wanted a disaster on their own submarine. What a bizarre comment.

by Sakos 2y ago

shiroiushi 2y ago

>Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I never said it does. It certainly doesn't. But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. >There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Like what? The only thing I can see is that Iraq was run by a crappy dictator, while Ukraine was a troubled and corrupt democracy. Otherwise, it was really just as bad. The US's claim that Saddam was working with Al Qaeda on a WMD program is probably even more absurd than Russia's claim that Nazis are running Ukraine. >maybe there are other bad guys too Basically all the major powers are bad guys. Some are just worse than others. In the mid-2000s, the US was the worst; today, Russia is the worst with China a close 2nd (constantly threatening an invasion of Taiwan and bullying their SCS neighbors).

aguaviva 2y ago
But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. You know, you can also just completely ignore whatever "the US says" about the topic (or supposedly says based on whatever news feeds seem to be bubbling up for you in the last 10 minutes). Both its narratives and its moral posturing. In fact, you basically go on with most of your life if the big bad ole' USA never existed at all. Even if you happen to be stuck living there for some dumb reason. And instead just do your own research -- ideally grounded in lots and lots of solid history, but also along other axes, such as talking to people actually from either of these other much more fascinating places, and even (if it seems safe for you to do so) visiting them yourself. And then come to your own views about how bad and evil Russia (or whichever putatively evil thing) is or is not, on its own merits (or lack thereof). Completely without reference to whatever "the US" supposedly has to say about anything. In general this whole emphasis on "hypocrisy" is really not useful in terms of making useful judgements about what actually happened in the world, or why. On the whole it seems to serve no other purpose than to cloud people's minds, promote anxiety ... and get them to start ruminating, fulminating and devoting way too much energy on the topic of whether a certain person (or an entire country, allegedly) is "hypocritical" about a certain putatively evil thing on the world -- rather than the actual facts and etiology of the actual putatively evil thing in itself.
- Sakos 2y ago
  This is a great argument. One just has to go to countries like Ukraine and the Baltic states to see what people think about Russia. Russia is an existential threat for these people. Not just some ideological opponent in global politics. The illegal invasion of Iraq doesn't change this. It doesn't change how Ukrainians are affected by Russia's war on them.
wiseowise 2y ago
> But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. I don’t remember US trying to re-establish its long gone failed empire that collapsed under its own weight. > The only thing I can see is that Iraq was run by a crappy dictator, while Ukraine was a troubled and corrupt democracy. “The only” > Otherwise, it was really just as bad. Just as bad? Don’t be ridiculous, Jesus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes And the war isn’t over yet! I can’t imagine how much more shitshow is happening in the background in occupied territories and how much has already happened in 10 years. > The US's claim that Saddam was working with Al Qaeda on a WMD program is probably even more absurd than Russia's claim that Nazis are running Ukraine. For an outside viewer, first one looks far more plausible than the second one. > Basically all the major powers are bad guys. Some are just worse than others. In the mid-2000s, the US was the worst; today, Russia is the worst with China a close 2nd (constantly threatening an invasion of Taiwan and bullying their SCS neighbors). No, US wasn’t the worst in 2000s. Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, Ukraine. https://istpublishing.org/en/russian-colonialism-101-maksym-eristavi https://istpublishing.org/en/russian-colonialism-101-maksym-... Not even talking about terror on her own people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politk... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk_submarine_disaster And many more.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >I don’t remember US trying to re-establish its long gone failed empire that collapsed under its own weight. No, it was trying to maintain an empire of sorts. >“The only” What difference do you see in the justification for these wars? >Just as bad? Don’t be ridiculous, Jesus. I'm not. It's just as bad. I'm not talking about war crimes; if you had bothered to read more carefully, you'd see I was talking about justifications for the wars, not how the wars were actually conducted once underway. Of course, the US did far better. >For an outside viewer, first one looks far more plausible than the second one. How so? Any fool could see at the time that there were no WMD, that the US was rushing to a war on flimsy evidence, and the whole idea that Saddam was in league with Al Qaeda was simply made up, when all the hijackers were actually from Saudi Arabia. I could see it was all BS at the time, and I was just someone watching the news. >No, US wasn’t the worst in 2000s. I'm pretty sure the US invasion of Iraq resulted in more civilian deaths than Russia's actions in the 2000s. And how is the Kursk incident evidence of some kind of evil? It was incompetence and stupidity, sure, but it was an accident: it's not like Russia's government wanted a disaster on their own submarine. What a bizarre comment.