6 ms·

Time for tariffs, then?

by createaccount99 2y ago

Sabinus 2y ago
We can tolerate more subsidy to industry from allies.
- Malidir 2y ago
  Not allies, sales competitors. It's not of 'critical' nationally strategic importance is it?
- niceguy1827 2y ago
  I wish the politicians were as honest as you are -- it's about the good guys v.s. bad guys after all.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    I don’t understand how is that not obvious. Of course it is about good guys vs bad guys. Japan is a strategic ally and doesn’t hold nuclear gun to US head while trying to “establish new world order” or what the hell commies/kleptocrats been spewing recently.
    - Sakos 2y ago
      Our culture has reached a point where there are no good guys or bad guys. Just look at Star Wars, where the latest director and actors try to argue that it's just a matter of perspective, the Empire isn't necessarily evil (despite good vs evil being the whole point of the original trilogy). So people are somehow unable and unwilling to consider anybody a good guy or anybody a bad guy. Like all the handwringing about how Putin must've been forced to invade Ukraine by NATO, it must be the US's fault, because the US has done bad things too.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        I wonder how much of this is because of GWB's disastrous and illegitimate invasion of Iraq in 2004. It really really no more justified than Putin's invasion of Ukraine, though it was handled far more competently from a military perspective so it ended much quicker.
        Sakos 2y ago
        I'm sure it's due to plenty of things the US has done. In the end, people are often unable to hold conflicting ideas in their head. So it ends up being "the US invaded Iraq so the US is always bad and Russia isn't bad because they aren't the US". There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I also attribute much of this to Chomsky, who spent the past 50 years railing on US imperialism, but never updated his world views when the cold war ended. I used to devour everything he said and wrote until I realized, you know, maybe there are other bad guys too and it's not all the US's fault (like Russia).
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        >Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I never said it does. It certainly doesn't. But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. >There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Like what? The only thing I can see is that Iraq was run by a crappy dictator, while Ukraine was a troubled and corrupt democracy. Otherwise, it was really just as bad. The US's claim that Saddam was working with Al Qaeda on a WMD program is probably even more absurd than Russia's claim that Nazis are running Ukraine. >maybe there are other bad guys too Basically all the major powers are bad guys. Some are just worse than others. In the mid-2000s, the US was the worst; today, Russia is the worst with China a close 2nd (constantly threatening an invasion of Taiwan and bullying their SCS neighbors).
vasco 2y ago
What's your opinion on the $52 billion in subsidies to semiconductor giants that the US has distributed in the last two years?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- iml7 2y ago
  who? I only saw the freeze on the chips bill for intc.Then pay Samsung and TSMC more subsidies.
bsder 2y ago
Yes. Solar panels were a good example. The fact that China absolutely dumped solar panels on the US completely crushed the domestic manufacturers. Now the US solar cell supply is almost completely at the mercy of a geopolitical adversary. And US domestic manufacturers don't want to be bothered as they have no idea when China will dump panels on the market, and they'll get crushed again. Because the US government failed to act, we lost both the manufacturing capability and the engineering research behind solar cells. The world utopia has failed, and the world has become adversarial again. We need to add some support to local, domestic manufacturers.
- Sakos 2y ago
  What's the better solution though? Tariffs, which end up just passing on the cost to consumers and do nothing about the competitiveness of the US's own industry, or subsidies, which can either incentivize waste or it can make US industry more competitive, or a combination of the two?
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    We could just go back to the Cold War days and cut off trade and communications altogether.
    - Sakos 2y ago
      > We could just go back to the Cold War days and cut off trade and communications altogether. Sorry, this is an absurd, bad faith argument and doesn't add to the conversation in any way. If you want to rejoin the conversation and discuss real options like a mature adult, go ahead. Otherwise, stop wasting everybody's time.
      - jmpman 2y ago
        The Russian invasion of Ukraine suggests that Russia may be willing to go down that path. If China invades Taiwan, I can absolutely see a scenario where this happens. China, being export driven, would likely have a harder time than it expects. Russia’s petroleum exports are enough to disrupt global supplies, and the reason they’re still allowed to trade.
Malidir 2y ago
All countries are doing the same. Tesla got lots of help in the US for example.

Time for tariffs, then?

Sabinus 2y ago

We can tolerate more subsidy to industry from allies.

Malidir 2y ago
Not allies, sales competitors. It's not of 'critical' nationally strategic importance is it?
niceguy1827 2y ago
I wish the politicians were as honest as you are -- it's about the good guys v.s. bad guys after all.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  I don’t understand how is that not obvious. Of course it is about good guys vs bad guys. Japan is a strategic ally and doesn’t hold nuclear gun to US head while trying to “establish new world order” or what the hell commies/kleptocrats been spewing recently.
  - Sakos 2y ago
    Our culture has reached a point where there are no good guys or bad guys. Just look at Star Wars, where the latest director and actors try to argue that it's just a matter of perspective, the Empire isn't necessarily evil (despite good vs evil being the whole point of the original trilogy). So people are somehow unable and unwilling to consider anybody a good guy or anybody a bad guy. Like all the handwringing about how Putin must've been forced to invade Ukraine by NATO, it must be the US's fault, because the US has done bad things too.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      I wonder how much of this is because of GWB's disastrous and illegitimate invasion of Iraq in 2004. It really really no more justified than Putin's invasion of Ukraine, though it was handled far more competently from a military perspective so it ended much quicker.
      - Sakos 2y ago
        I'm sure it's due to plenty of things the US has done. In the end, people are often unable to hold conflicting ideas in their head. So it ends up being "the US invaded Iraq so the US is always bad and Russia isn't bad because they aren't the US". There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I also attribute much of this to Chomsky, who spent the past 50 years railing on US imperialism, but never updated his world views when the cold war ended. I used to devour everything he said and wrote until I realized, you know, maybe there are other bad guys too and it's not all the US's fault (like Russia).
        shiroiushi 2y ago
        >Even if they are both illegitimate that doesn't make them in any way alike, and the invasion of Iraq simply doesn't justify the invasion of Ukraine in any shape or form. I never said it does. It certainly doesn't. But to outsiders, having the US say how bad and evil Russia is for illegally invading Ukraine sounds ridiculous when the US illegally invaded Iraq only 20 years ago with equally absurd justification. >There are clear differences between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the invasion of Iraq. Like what? The only thing I can see is that Iraq was run by a crappy dictator, while Ukraine was a troubled and corrupt democracy. Otherwise, it was really just as bad. The US's claim that Saddam was working with Al Qaeda on a WMD program is probably even more absurd than Russia's claim that Nazis are running Ukraine. >maybe there are other bad guys too Basically all the major powers are bad guys. Some are just worse than others. In the mid-2000s, the US was the worst; today, Russia is the worst with China a close 2nd (constantly threatening an invasion of Taiwan and bullying their SCS neighbors).

vasco 2y ago

What's your opinion on the $52 billion in subsidies to semiconductor giants that the US has distributed in the last two years?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
iml7 2y ago
who? I only saw the freeze on the chips bill for intc.Then pay Samsung and TSMC more subsidies.

bsder 2y ago

Yes. Solar panels were a good example. The fact that China absolutely dumped solar panels on the US completely crushed the domestic manufacturers. Now the US solar cell supply is almost completely at the mercy of a geopolitical adversary. And US domestic manufacturers don't want to be bothered as they have no idea when China will dump panels on the market, and they'll get crushed again. Because the US government failed to act, we lost both the manufacturing capability and the engineering research behind solar cells. The world utopia has failed, and the world has become adversarial again. We need to add some support to local, domestic manufacturers.

Sakos 2y ago
What's the better solution though? Tariffs, which end up just passing on the cost to consumers and do nothing about the competitiveness of the US's own industry, or subsidies, which can either incentivize waste or it can make US industry more competitive, or a combination of the two?
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  We could just go back to the Cold War days and cut off trade and communications altogether.
  - Sakos 2y ago
    > We could just go back to the Cold War days and cut off trade and communications altogether. Sorry, this is an absurd, bad faith argument and doesn't add to the conversation in any way. If you want to rejoin the conversation and discuss real options like a mature adult, go ahead. Otherwise, stop wasting everybody's time.
    - jmpman 2y ago
      The Russian invasion of Ukraine suggests that Russia may be willing to go down that path. If China invades Taiwan, I can absolutely see a scenario where this happens. China, being export driven, would likely have a harder time than it expects. Russia’s petroleum exports are enough to disrupt global supplies, and the reason they’re still allowed to trade.

Malidir 2y ago

All countries are doing the same. Tesla got lots of help in the US for example.