3 ms·

>As a result, NT did support both Internet protocols and the traditional LAN protocols used in pre-existing Microsoft environments, which put it ahead of Unix i

>As a result, NT did support both Internet protocols and the traditional LAN protocols used in pre-existing Microsoft environments, which put it ahead of Unix in corporate environments. Fun facts, to accelerate networking and Internet capability of Windows NT due to the complexity of coding a compatible TCP/IP implementation, the developers just took the entire TCP/IP stacks from BSD, and call it a day since BSD license does allows for that. They cannot do that with Linux since it's GPL licensed codes, and this probably when the FUD attack started for Linux by Microsoft and the culmination of that is "Linux is cancer" statement by the ex-CEO Ballmer. The irony is that Linux now is the most used OS in Azure cloud platform (where Butler was the chief designer) not BSDs [2]. [1] History of the Berkeley Software Distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Berkeley_Software_Distribution#4.3BSD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Berkeley_Softwa... [2] Microsoft: Linux Is the Top Operating System on Azure Today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41037380 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41037380

nullindividual 2y ago
Not quite. NT 3.1 used a TCP stack from Spider Systems[0]. It was completely rewritten by Microsoft in 3.5[1]. The userland utilities, ping, tracert, etc were brought over from BSD. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Systems [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151229084950/http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/6/19/05641/7357 https://web.archive.org/web/20151229084950/http://www.kuro5h...
- teleforce 2y ago
  Are you pretty sure on that? These are some quotes among others on the topic in a forum discussions back in 2005: "While Microsoft did technically 'buy' their TCP/IP stack from Spider Systems, they did not "own" it. Spider used the code available and written for BSD, so it doesn't appear that Microsoft directly copied BSD code (which, again, it is perfectly legal and legitimate to copy), they got it from a third party. Also ftp, rcp and rsh seems to have come with the bundle. I have heard that ftp was, but have never used rcp and rsh on Windows, so don't know what version(s) those were or were not included in any particular Windows version. Anyone can look through the .exes for those files and look for "The Regents of the University of California" copyright notice, if they want to see for themselves (rather than take the word of some anonymous geeks on a forum) ;)" [1] Windows TCPIP Stack Based on Unix ? https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/381190-windows-tcpip-stack-based-on-unix/ https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/381190-windows-tcpip-stac...
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    Like I said, the userland applications (ping, tracert, etc.) were ports from BSD, probably nearly 1:1 copies. The TCP & IP stacks were written by Microsoft in NT 3.5. What Spider Software used (again, used by Microsoft in NT 3.1 due to time pressures) may have originated from BSD, but we don't know. You can browse the NT4 source code TCP/IP stack. Just search GitHub.
    - teleforce 2y ago
      >What Spider Software used (again, used by Microsoft in NT 3.1 due to time pressures) may have originated from BSD In all likelihood it's from BSD don't you think?
      - nullindividual 2y ago
        That's an assumption that neither of us are qualified to make. BSD wasn't the only TCP/IP stack on the market[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite#Adoption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite#Adopti...
        teleforce 2y ago
        If Spider engineers didn't even bothered to change any of the BSD userspace utilities what is the chance that they built the entire TCP/IP stack perfectly compatible with the outside world inside the kernel from scratch?
        nullindividual 2y ago
        The Spider engineers weren't the ones to port BSD utilities. That was Microsoft.
        teleforce 2y ago
        Perhaps you misunderstood my statement I am not talking about NT there, Spider Systems has had their network user spaces utilities and tools but almost all of them were BSD not developed by them. If their tools originally BSD then what were the chances they developed their very own TCP/IP stacks from scratch with good compatibility with the outside world? This remind me a particular incident happened to Brendan Gregg of the eBPF initiatives, when a company performed a demo of their alleged game changing kernel tracing tools to him and as it turned out the tools were actually Brendan very own developed tools.
netbsdusers 2y ago
> the developers just took the entire TCP/IP stacks from BSD, and call it a day since BSD license does allows for that. They didn't, but I don't know why you're putting a sinister spin on this either way. Of course the licence allows for that. It was the express intention of the authors of the BSD networking stack that it be used far and wide. They went to considerable effort to extract the networking code into an independent distribution (BSD Net/1) which could be released under the BSD licence independently of the rest of the code (parts of which were encumbered at the time). They wanted it to be used.
- teleforce 2y ago
  >They didn't Didn't they? I am not questioning the fact that BSD is a commercial and Microsoft 'friendly' license, and Microsoft and Unix vendors hired many of BSD developers, it's a win-win situation for them. What is so sinister by saying Microsoft at the time didn't particularly like Linux GPL license and their ex-CEO called it a cancer (their words not mine) since it's not compatible with their commercial endeavours at that particular time. Perhaps you have forgotten or too young to remember the hostility of Microsoft towards Linux with their well documented FUD initiatives [1]. [1] Halloween documents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    Linux wasn't a thing by the time NT was in development. Hell, the GPL itself wasn't a thing when NT began development!
    - teleforce 2y ago
      Are you pretty sure about that? Linux 0.99 was released to the world with TCP/IP stack back in Sept 1992 whereas at the time Windows NT was still in the development since 3.1 version with the adopted Spider TCP/IP stack was only released in July 1993 [1],[2]. There's a time window (pun intended) between the public released of the Linux kernel with working TCP/IP and the official public released of Windows NT. If Microsoft wanted to adopt Linux TCP/IP (I doubt they wanted to do that since it's still at the time pre stable 1.0) theoretically they can because it will be just copy paste exercise as they most probably did with Spider TCP/IP stack. But what I am saying is that even if they wanted to it will be illegal because by the stroke of Linus' genius Linux kernel was relicensed to GPL in the exact same year 0.99 kernel was released. [1] Linux kernel version history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_version_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_version_history [2] Windows NT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT

nullindividual 2y ago

Not quite. NT 3.1 used a TCP stack from Spider Systems[0]. It was completely rewritten by Microsoft in 3.5[1]. The userland utilities, ping, tracert, etc were brought over from BSD. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Systems [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151229084950/http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/6/19/05641/7357 https://web.archive.org/web/20151229084950/http://www.kuro5h...

teleforce 2y ago
Are you pretty sure on that? These are some quotes among others on the topic in a forum discussions back in 2005: "While Microsoft did technically 'buy' their TCP/IP stack from Spider Systems, they did not "own" it. Spider used the code available and written for BSD, so it doesn't appear that Microsoft directly copied BSD code (which, again, it is perfectly legal and legitimate to copy), they got it from a third party. Also ftp, rcp and rsh seems to have come with the bundle. I have heard that ftp was, but have never used rcp and rsh on Windows, so don't know what version(s) those were or were not included in any particular Windows version. Anyone can look through the .exes for those files and look for "The Regents of the University of California" copyright notice, if they want to see for themselves (rather than take the word of some anonymous geeks on a forum) ;)" [1] Windows TCPIP Stack Based on Unix ? https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/381190-windows-tcpip-stack-based-on-unix/ https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/381190-windows-tcpip-stac...
- nullindividual 2y ago
  Like I said, the userland applications (ping, tracert, etc.) were ports from BSD, probably nearly 1:1 copies. The TCP & IP stacks were written by Microsoft in NT 3.5. What Spider Software used (again, used by Microsoft in NT 3.1 due to time pressures) may have originated from BSD, but we don't know. You can browse the NT4 source code TCP/IP stack. Just search GitHub.
  - teleforce 2y ago
    >What Spider Software used (again, used by Microsoft in NT 3.1 due to time pressures) may have originated from BSD In all likelihood it's from BSD don't you think?
    - nullindividual 2y ago
      That's an assumption that neither of us are qualified to make. BSD wasn't the only TCP/IP stack on the market[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite#Adoption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite#Adopti...
      - teleforce 2y ago
        If Spider engineers didn't even bothered to change any of the BSD userspace utilities what is the chance that they built the entire TCP/IP stack perfectly compatible with the outside world inside the kernel from scratch?
        nullindividual 2y ago
        The Spider engineers weren't the ones to port BSD utilities. That was Microsoft.
        teleforce 2y ago
        Perhaps you misunderstood my statement I am not talking about NT there, Spider Systems has had their network user spaces utilities and tools but almost all of them were BSD not developed by them. If their tools originally BSD then what were the chances they developed their very own TCP/IP stacks from scratch with good compatibility with the outside world? This remind me a particular incident happened to Brendan Gregg of the eBPF initiatives, when a company performed a demo of their alleged game changing kernel tracing tools to him and as it turned out the tools were actually Brendan very own developed tools.

netbsdusers 2y ago

> the developers just took the entire TCP/IP stacks from BSD, and call it a day since BSD license does allows for that. They didn't, but I don't know why you're putting a sinister spin on this either way. Of course the licence allows for that. It was the express intention of the authors of the BSD networking stack that it be used far and wide. They went to considerable effort to extract the networking code into an independent distribution (BSD Net/1) which could be released under the BSD licence independently of the rest of the code (parts of which were encumbered at the time). They wanted it to be used.

teleforce 2y ago
>They didn't Didn't they? I am not questioning the fact that BSD is a commercial and Microsoft 'friendly' license, and Microsoft and Unix vendors hired many of BSD developers, it's a win-win situation for them. What is so sinister by saying Microsoft at the time didn't particularly like Linux GPL license and their ex-CEO called it a cancer (their words not mine) since it's not compatible with their commercial endeavours at that particular time. Perhaps you have forgotten or too young to remember the hostility of Microsoft towards Linux with their well documented FUD initiatives [1]. [1] Halloween documents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents
- nullindividual 2y ago
  Linux wasn't a thing by the time NT was in development. Hell, the GPL itself wasn't a thing when NT began development!
  - teleforce 2y ago
    Are you pretty sure about that? Linux 0.99 was released to the world with TCP/IP stack back in Sept 1992 whereas at the time Windows NT was still in the development since 3.1 version with the adopted Spider TCP/IP stack was only released in July 1993 [1],[2]. There's a time window (pun intended) between the public released of the Linux kernel with working TCP/IP and the official public released of Windows NT. If Microsoft wanted to adopt Linux TCP/IP (I doubt they wanted to do that since it's still at the time pre stable 1.0) theoretically they can because it will be just copy paste exercise as they most probably did with Spider TCP/IP stack. But what I am saying is that even if they wanted to it will be illegal because by the stroke of Linus' genius Linux kernel was relicensed to GPL in the exact same year 0.99 kernel was released. [1] Linux kernel version history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_version_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_version_history [2] Windows NT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT