5 ms·

Their magic recipe is that an amazing amount of non-technical people have figured out how to work with the site. The Dutch version of Craigslist (Marktplaats,

by mtrimpe 14y ago

Their magic recipe is that an amazing amount of non-technical people have figured out how to work with the site. The Dutch version of Craigslist (Marktplaats, owned by eBay) is in a similar predicament. They have a very sucky UI and have experimented with new and improved versions, but every improvement was quickly reverted after large drops in engagement. It's almost surreal to look at their site (http://marktplaats.nl http://marktplaats.nl) and realize that there's tons of highly talented people behind it.

deleted 14y ago
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alister 14y ago
Despite the very basic UI, the Dutch version of Craigslist seems to be doing well based on the hundreds of apartment listings in, for example, Amsterdam: http://amsterdam.craigslist.org/apa/ http://amsterdam.craigslist.org/apa/ But if I might inject an opposing data point, nobody seems to use the Brazilian version of Craigslist. Check out Sao Paulo: http://saopaulo.craigslist.org/apa/ http://saopaulo.craigslist.org/apa/ Can you believe that there are just 5 apartment listings for a metropolitan area of 19.9 million! It's incomprehensible to me why Craigslist doesn't work there, especially since all the alternatives involve paying some middleman for listing. The same goes for job sites and "things for sale" sites as well. Brazilians prefer to use some scammy-looking sites loaded with graphics and eye candy and often charging a fee, rather than the vanilla Craigslist. I'm going to venture a guess that this has much more to do with trust (Brazilians want to feel that someone has vetted the data) than with good/bad UI or web design.
- marquis 14y ago
  There are various examples of Craiglist just simply not working in various countries. In fact I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that Craigslist really only had a monopoly in the U.S. Brazil uses olx (I think?), Argentina and Mexico among other Latin American countries use mercadolibre where Craigslist is more for baiting foreigners with higher rent prices and international shared accomodation. Australia has gumtree, New Zealand has trademe (and they both use Seek for jobs) and I would use marktplaats in the Netherlands as mentioned above. I forget the one for Spain. The list goes on..
  - personlurking 14y ago
    'alister' made some good points up top. Let me get further into the rental side of the subject. As someone who, on many occasions, has rented in Brazil using classifieds sites, it's a mess. 'We' really, really need a CL-type site that everyone knows and uses. As a Californian, and former user of CL, it boggles my mind why CL-Brazil isn't used. It's there (here), it's usable, simple, and in Portuguese. Instead, people use OLX (free) a little, Vivastreet (free) a little, EasyQuarto (paid) a little, and a few other sites that are either less popular or only work sometimes. Couchsurfing city-specific groups usually each have a sub-group for renting but a strange occurrence takes place there, almost no one puts the price-point. It's called doing business, paying money for a product or service, yet there's a real aversion to giving up the rental price in one's ad. Luckily, the more popular sites I mentioned make it so one has to list their rental price. And my final two gripes are that very few people respond to inquiries into any particular ad (I think this is universal though) and a good 60% of ads here in Brazil only want women renters. It's tough, I tell you...
  - genwin 14y ago
    I suspect CL doesn't fly in some countries mainly because other companies got the jump on them there.
- cocoflunchy 14y ago
  Same here in France. It looks like the only ads on fr.craigslist.com are either posted by americans living in France (they're allin english) or spam. I have never heard of anyone buying/selling stuff on craigslist among my friends/relatives. The (pretty recent) equivalent would be http://leboncoin.fr http://leboncoin.fr, I guess.
bermanoid 14y ago
Yup, there's a catch-22 here: when your site has shitty usability but is the only source of information, people hit more pages and spend more time there. When you fix your UI mistakes, they're in and out quicker because they actually get what they need efficiently. Because you're optimizing for engagement by measuring time on site or something like that, you end up making sure never to make your site easy to use. This is not a recipe for success. It's a symptom of measuring the wrong metric, especially when you have a near monopoly on a market due to network effects. If this is really why Craigslist is not improving their UI, they need to hire some analysts that actually know WTF they're doing.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Because you're optimizing for engagement by measuring time on site or something like that Oh good, nobody actually told you how they measured but you already know! Bravo.
  - ceph_ 14y ago
    Remember, if the numbers don't support your opinion, it's because your measuring the wrong thing!
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - stingraycharles 14y ago
    I can tell you from first-hand experience that they know what they're doing. They measure almost everything, nicely put together in dashboards with all the KPI's for the appropriate managers. I think it's unlikely they used a suboptimal performance indicator to judge the site's new design, and would say the same thing about craigslist.
    - vl 14y ago
      If only they would measure amount of spam in their for rent listing that currently nearly useless.
ricardobeat 14y ago
TBH that website isn't much of an improvement.
mmatants 14y ago
That makes sense. I think a lot of folks advocate maps and filter sliders because they over-estimate an average user's comfort level with such advanced features. I think a non-technical person is much more content with spending several times more time just sifting through listings manually instead of having to learn some whiz-bang (in their mind) gadget.

by mtrimpe 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

alister 14y ago

Despite the very basic UI, the Dutch version of Craigslist seems to be doing well based on the hundreds of apartment listings in, for example, Amsterdam: http://amsterdam.craigslist.org/apa/ http://amsterdam.craigslist.org/apa/ But if I might inject an opposing data point, nobody seems to use the Brazilian version of Craigslist. Check out Sao Paulo: http://saopaulo.craigslist.org/apa/ http://saopaulo.craigslist.org/apa/ Can you believe that there are just 5 apartment listings for a metropolitan area of 19.9 million! It's incomprehensible to me why Craigslist doesn't work there, especially since all the alternatives involve paying some middleman for listing. The same goes for job sites and "things for sale" sites as well. Brazilians prefer to use some scammy-looking sites loaded with graphics and eye candy and often charging a fee, rather than the vanilla Craigslist. I'm going to venture a guess that this has much more to do with trust (Brazilians want to feel that someone has vetted the data) than with good/bad UI or web design.

marquis 14y ago
There are various examples of Craiglist just simply not working in various countries. In fact I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that Craigslist really only had a monopoly in the U.S. Brazil uses olx (I think?), Argentina and Mexico among other Latin American countries use mercadolibre where Craigslist is more for baiting foreigners with higher rent prices and international shared accomodation. Australia has gumtree, New Zealand has trademe (and they both use Seek for jobs) and I would use marktplaats in the Netherlands as mentioned above. I forget the one for Spain. The list goes on..
- personlurking 14y ago
  'alister' made some good points up top. Let me get further into the rental side of the subject. As someone who, on many occasions, has rented in Brazil using classifieds sites, it's a mess. 'We' really, really need a CL-type site that everyone knows and uses. As a Californian, and former user of CL, it boggles my mind why CL-Brazil isn't used. It's there (here), it's usable, simple, and in Portuguese. Instead, people use OLX (free) a little, Vivastreet (free) a little, EasyQuarto (paid) a little, and a few other sites that are either less popular or only work sometimes. Couchsurfing city-specific groups usually each have a sub-group for renting but a strange occurrence takes place there, almost no one puts the price-point. It's called doing business, paying money for a product or service, yet there's a real aversion to giving up the rental price in one's ad. Luckily, the more popular sites I mentioned make it so one has to list their rental price. And my final two gripes are that very few people respond to inquiries into any particular ad (I think this is universal though) and a good 60% of ads here in Brazil only want women renters. It's tough, I tell you...
- genwin 14y ago
  I suspect CL doesn't fly in some countries mainly because other companies got the jump on them there.
cocoflunchy 14y ago
Same here in France. It looks like the only ads on fr.craigslist.com are either posted by americans living in France (they're allin english) or spam. I have never heard of anyone buying/selling stuff on craigslist among my friends/relatives. The (pretty recent) equivalent would be http://leboncoin.fr http://leboncoin.fr, I guess.

bermanoid 14y ago

Yup, there's a catch-22 here: when your site has shitty usability but is the only source of information, people hit more pages and spend more time there. When you fix your UI mistakes, they're in and out quicker because they actually get what they need efficiently. Because you're optimizing for engagement by measuring time on site or something like that, you end up making sure never to make your site easy to use. This is not a recipe for success. It's a symptom of measuring the wrong metric, especially when you have a near monopoly on a market due to network effects. If this is really why Craigslist is not improving their UI, they need to hire some analysts that actually know WTF they're doing.

sliverstorm 14y ago
Because you're optimizing for engagement by measuring time on site or something like that Oh good, nobody actually told you how they measured but you already know! Bravo.
- ceph_ 14y ago
  Remember, if the numbers don't support your opinion, it's because your measuring the wrong thing!
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- stingraycharles 14y ago
  I can tell you from first-hand experience that they know what they're doing. They measure almost everything, nicely put together in dashboards with all the KPI's for the appropriate managers. I think it's unlikely they used a suboptimal performance indicator to judge the site's new design, and would say the same thing about craigslist.
  - vl 14y ago
    If only they would measure amount of spam in their for rent listing that currently nearly useless.

ricardobeat 14y ago

TBH that website isn't much of an improvement.

mmatants 14y ago

That makes sense. I think a lot of folks advocate maps and filter sliders because they over-estimate an average user's comfort level with such advanced features. I think a non-technical person is much more content with spending several times more time just sifting through listings manually instead of having to learn some whiz-bang (in their mind) gadget.