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That's the big question mark I have for Flutter. Looks like a pretty nice platform from the outside, but I cannot see Google NOT killing it

saghm 2y ago
I assumed Flutter is open source; if they fix kill it off, is there a reason to not to expect the community to fork and maintain it? Presumably they'd have to rebrand it without Google giving permission for the name, but that alone doesn't seem like enough to stop it from existing in some form.
- clhodapp 2y ago
  The base ROI of Flutter to Google isn't all that clear because it's relatively complex to maintain. Worse, it requires maintaining Dart, which appears to be a dead-end language in terms of adoption. If Flutter and Dart were donated to the community, they would most likely slowly die because no one outside of Google gets enough benefit from them to justify maintaining an entire programming language.
  - nox101 2y ago
    It's worse. Flutter actually works against google's own interests. Webpages that render text in a canvas are not as easily indexable as webpages that emit html. It's funny too because the same is true for sites made with flutter. They aren't SEO friendly You could suggest using AI to OCR the canvas but even that would be subpar because most sites that use HTML provide multiple screens worth of info but sites that render to a canvas render only what's visible. The rest of the data is internal. You'd not only need the AI to successfully OCR the text, you'd need it to interact with the page get it to render what's not currently displayed.
    - timschmidt 2y ago
      Accessibility interfaces are ideal for this situation, allowing an LLM to interact with a GUI strictly through text. Unfortunately, they're often an afterthought in implementations.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Same can be said from GWT.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > is there a reason to not to expect the community to fork and maintain it? I think you should ask the opposite question instead, and this goes for any project that is corporate "owned"/sponsored like Flutter: why should we expect the community to maintain it if the company abandons it? Are there any non-Googlers with commit access to the project? Do non-Googlers comprise a decent percentage of contributions? If not, the bar goes up quite a bit for a fork, or for a "peaceful handoff" of the existing project.
kyrra 2y ago
Googler, opinions are my own. You have to look at what teams at Google are using Flutter. Any dev tool Google officially releases tends to be funded by some product that actually likes/uses it. Current list from https://flutter.dev/showcase https://flutter.dev/showcase: GPay, Earth, Ads (this is a big one), and others. There are a lot of teams using it, which is why it's still getting so much support. If you see Google apps moving away from it, then it's time to start looking for an alternative. It's also why AngularDart still exists and is getting updated. There are large projects that use it, so they will keep supporting it.
- runevault 2y ago
  The fact Pay and Ads both use, along with Youtube Create even, is a pretty good sign because if they have a non-trivial codebase of flutter/dart app(s) then killing it would impact all those teams who are doing important work. I've debated trying flutter/dart a few times and this makes me feel more willing to try it.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  And none of Google’s flagship cross platform apps use Flutter.
- troupo 2y ago
  > Ads (this is a big one), How is Ads using Flutter? It likely doesn't, or uses it for some largely irrelevant things like mobile SDK integrations
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    I think Ads has a mobile app for people who run them?
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Ads is the reason Dart is still around, they saved the team after the project folded, after migrating from GWT to AngularDart, they weren't into doing yet another rewrite.

saghm 2y ago

I assumed Flutter is open source; if they fix kill it off, is there a reason to not to expect the community to fork and maintain it? Presumably they'd have to rebrand it without Google giving permission for the name, but that alone doesn't seem like enough to stop it from existing in some form.

clhodapp 2y ago
The base ROI of Flutter to Google isn't all that clear because it's relatively complex to maintain. Worse, it requires maintaining Dart, which appears to be a dead-end language in terms of adoption. If Flutter and Dart were donated to the community, they would most likely slowly die because no one outside of Google gets enough benefit from them to justify maintaining an entire programming language.
- nox101 2y ago
  It's worse. Flutter actually works against google's own interests. Webpages that render text in a canvas are not as easily indexable as webpages that emit html. It's funny too because the same is true for sites made with flutter. They aren't SEO friendly You could suggest using AI to OCR the canvas but even that would be subpar because most sites that use HTML provide multiple screens worth of info but sites that render to a canvas render only what's visible. The rest of the data is internal. You'd not only need the AI to successfully OCR the text, you'd need it to interact with the page get it to render what's not currently displayed.
  - timschmidt 2y ago
    Accessibility interfaces are ideal for this situation, allowing an LLM to interact with a GUI strictly through text. Unfortunately, they're often an afterthought in implementations.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Same can be said from GWT.
kelnos 2y ago
> is there a reason to not to expect the community to fork and maintain it? I think you should ask the opposite question instead, and this goes for any project that is corporate "owned"/sponsored like Flutter: why should we expect the community to maintain it if the company abandons it? Are there any non-Googlers with commit access to the project? Do non-Googlers comprise a decent percentage of contributions? If not, the bar goes up quite a bit for a fork, or for a "peaceful handoff" of the existing project.

kyrra 2y ago

Googler, opinions are my own. You have to look at what teams at Google are using Flutter. Any dev tool Google officially releases tends to be funded by some product that actually likes/uses it. Current list from https://flutter.dev/showcase https://flutter.dev/showcase: GPay, Earth, Ads (this is a big one), and others. There are a lot of teams using it, which is why it's still getting so much support. If you see Google apps moving away from it, then it's time to start looking for an alternative. It's also why AngularDart still exists and is getting updated. There are large projects that use it, so they will keep supporting it.

runevault 2y ago
The fact Pay and Ads both use, along with Youtube Create even, is a pretty good sign because if they have a non-trivial codebase of flutter/dart app(s) then killing it would impact all those teams who are doing important work. I've debated trying flutter/dart a few times and this makes me feel more willing to try it.
scarface_74 2y ago
And none of Google’s flagship cross platform apps use Flutter.
troupo 2y ago
> Ads (this is a big one), How is Ads using Flutter? It likely doesn't, or uses it for some largely irrelevant things like mobile SDK integrations
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I think Ads has a mobile app for people who run them?
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Ads is the reason Dart is still around, they saved the team after the project folded, after migrating from GWT to AngularDart, they weren't into doing yet another rewrite.