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> The NT kernel doesn't execute processes, it executes _threads_ This is amongst the most important and visible differences between NT and Unix-likes, really.

> The NT kernel doesn't execute processes, it executes _threads_ This is amongst the most important and visible differences between NT and Unix-likes, really. The key idea is that processes manage threads. Pavel Yosifovich in Windows 10 System Internals Part I puts it succinctly: A process is a containment and management object that represents a running instance of a program. The term “process runs” which is used fairly often, is inaccurate. Processes don’t run - processes manage. Threads are the ones that execute code and technically run. NtCreateProcess is extremely expensive and its direct use strongly discouraged (but Cygwin and MSYS2, in their IMO misguided intention to force Unix paradigms onto Windows, wrote fork() anyway), but thread creation and management is extremely straightforward, and the Windows threading API is as a result much nicer than pthreads.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
It is hard to accept that this is written by someone with any idea about how Linux works (as a Unix). A process (really, a "task") is a containment and management object that represents a running instance of a program. A program ("task") does not run, its threads do. The significant difference between Windows-related OS kernels and Unix-y ones is that process creation is much more heavyweight on the former. Nevertheless, on both types of systems, it is threads that execute code and technically run.
- jjtheblunt 2y ago
  Mach before Linux was using task and threads as you seem to attribute to Linux. A nice historical overview is… https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Mach/Mach.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    I worked on Mach in the early 1990s :) For example: https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenix-mach-iii-symposium/adding-scheduler-activations-mach-30 https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenix-mach-iii-symposium/...
    - jjtheblunt 2y ago
      i was programming on NeXT as a registered developer back then too. Middle aged nerds unite!
- delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
  If you're splitting hairs, you're correct; processes manage threads on all OSs. However, from the application programmer's perspective, the convention on Unix-likes (which is what really matters) is to fork and pipe between processes as IPC, whereas on Windows this is not the case. Clearly the process start-up time on Unix-likes is considered fast enough that parallelism on Unix until fairly recently was based on spinning up tens to hundreds of processes and IPC-ing between them. I believe the point stands.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    For a certain kind of application programming, that is and was true, yes. But not for many other kinds of application programming, where you create threads using pthreads or some similar API, which are mapped 1:1 onto kernel threads that collectively form a "process". I'm not sure what your definition of "fairly recently" is, but in the mid-90s, when we wanted to test new SMP systems, we would typically write code that used pthreads for parallelism. The fact that there is indeed a story about process-level parallelism (with IPC) in Unix-y systems should not distract from the equally fact existence and use of thread-level parallelism for at least 35 years.
- immibis 2y ago
  This was written about Windows kernels. Linux is the only Unix-like kernel I actually know anything about. In Linux, processes essentially do not exist. You have threads, and thread groups. A thread group is what most of the user-space tooling calls a process. It doesn't do very much by itself. As the name implies, it mostly just groups threads together under one identifier. Linux threads and "processes" are both created using the "clone" system call, which allows the caller to specify how much state the new thread shares with the old thread. Share almost everything, and you have a "thread". Share almost nothing, and you have a "process". But the kernel treats them the same. By contrast, processes in NT are real data structures that hold all kinds of attributes, none of which is a running piece of code, since that's still handled by a thread in both designs.
  - ithkuil 2y ago
    IIRC indeed Linux preserves the time honoured Unix semantics of a process ID by leveraging the thread group ID
- torginus 2y ago
  My knowledge might be very out of date, but I remember a Linux process being an unit of execution as well as isolation. Creating a process without a thread is not possible afaik. In contrast, Linux threads were implemented essentially as a hack - they were processes that shared memory and resources with their parent process, and were referred to internally as LWPs - lightweight processes. I also remember a lot of Unix/Linux people not liking the idea of multithreading, preferring multiple processes to one, single-threaded process.
  - nineteen999 2y ago
    Linux took quite a path getting to its current threading implementation. Before NPTL[2], there was LinuxThreads[1], before that, I'm pretty sure threads were userspace only. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxThreads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxThreads [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_POSIX_Thread_Library https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_POSIX_Thread_Library
netbsdusers 2y ago
All kernels execute threads. It's just that very old unixes had a unity of thread and process (and Linux having emulated that later introduced an unprecedented solution to bring in support for posix threads). The other unixes for their part all have a typical process and threads distinction today and have had for a while.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

It is hard to accept that this is written by someone with any idea about how Linux works (as a Unix). A process (really, a "task") is a containment and management object that represents a running instance of a program. A program ("task") does not run, its threads do. The significant difference between Windows-related OS kernels and Unix-y ones is that process creation is much more heavyweight on the former. Nevertheless, on both types of systems, it is threads that execute code and technically run.

jjtheblunt 2y ago
Mach before Linux was using task and threads as you seem to attribute to Linux. A nice historical overview is… https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgramming/Mach/Mach.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Da...
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  I worked on Mach in the early 1990s :) For example: https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenix-mach-iii-symposium/adding-scheduler-activations-mach-30 https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenix-mach-iii-symposium/...
  - jjtheblunt 2y ago
    i was programming on NeXT as a registered developer back then too. Middle aged nerds unite!
delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
If you're splitting hairs, you're correct; processes manage threads on all OSs. However, from the application programmer's perspective, the convention on Unix-likes (which is what really matters) is to fork and pipe between processes as IPC, whereas on Windows this is not the case. Clearly the process start-up time on Unix-likes is considered fast enough that parallelism on Unix until fairly recently was based on spinning up tens to hundreds of processes and IPC-ing between them. I believe the point stands.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  For a certain kind of application programming, that is and was true, yes. But not for many other kinds of application programming, where you create threads using pthreads or some similar API, which are mapped 1:1 onto kernel threads that collectively form a "process". I'm not sure what your definition of "fairly recently" is, but in the mid-90s, when we wanted to test new SMP systems, we would typically write code that used pthreads for parallelism. The fact that there is indeed a story about process-level parallelism (with IPC) in Unix-y systems should not distract from the equally fact existence and use of thread-level parallelism for at least 35 years.
immibis 2y ago
This was written about Windows kernels. Linux is the only Unix-like kernel I actually know anything about. In Linux, processes essentially do not exist. You have threads, and thread groups. A thread group is what most of the user-space tooling calls a process. It doesn't do very much by itself. As the name implies, it mostly just groups threads together under one identifier. Linux threads and "processes" are both created using the "clone" system call, which allows the caller to specify how much state the new thread shares with the old thread. Share almost everything, and you have a "thread". Share almost nothing, and you have a "process". But the kernel treats them the same. By contrast, processes in NT are real data structures that hold all kinds of attributes, none of which is a running piece of code, since that's still handled by a thread in both designs.
- ithkuil 2y ago
  IIRC indeed Linux preserves the time honoured Unix semantics of a process ID by leveraging the thread group ID
torginus 2y ago
My knowledge might be very out of date, but I remember a Linux process being an unit of execution as well as isolation. Creating a process without a thread is not possible afaik. In contrast, Linux threads were implemented essentially as a hack - they were processes that shared memory and resources with their parent process, and were referred to internally as LWPs - lightweight processes. I also remember a lot of Unix/Linux people not liking the idea of multithreading, preferring multiple processes to one, single-threaded process.
- nineteen999 2y ago
  Linux took quite a path getting to its current threading implementation. Before NPTL[2], there was LinuxThreads[1], before that, I'm pretty sure threads were userspace only. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxThreads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxThreads [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_POSIX_Thread_Library https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_POSIX_Thread_Library

netbsdusers 2y ago

All kernels execute threads. It's just that very old unixes had a unity of thread and process (and Linux having emulated that later introduced an unprecedented solution to bring in support for posix threads). The other unixes for their part all have a typical process and threads distinction today and have had for a while.