4 ms·

If you're interested in this, I'd recommend reading the 1870 [public domain] book "Shut Your Mouth and Save your Life". Internet Archive has it: https://archiv

by breck 2y ago

If you're interested in this, I'd recommend reading the 1870 [public domain] book "Shut Your Mouth and Save your Life". Internet Archive has it: https://archive.org/details/b28114450 https://archive.org/details/b28114450 Also look into "mouth taping".

VeejayRampay 2y ago
mouth taping is dangerous for many reasons, you should not be advocating it in a public forum
- breck 2y ago
  You are right, on the list of things that are dangerous, you would find mouth taping, probably right next to using a fork.
  - mikestew 2y ago
    You’re right, medical advice from the 1870s and TikTok videos, what could go wrong? But I did “look into ‘mouth taping’” as you suggested, and I’ll bet half the page titles were “Mouth-taping: is it safe?” or “…does it work?” At what point does Betteridge’s Law of Headlines[0] kick in? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
    - breck 2y ago
      > You’re right, medical advice from the 1870s and TikTok videos, what could go wrong? Have you read the book? Do you think I'd be recommending something that didn't have a very strong dataset backing it? > At what point does Betteridge’s Law of Headlines[0] kick in? Nothing is easier to manipulate than digital symbols. Thus, when talking about patterns one finds in digital symbols, one much be very very careful to build a trusthworthy dataset. Do you have a trusthworthy dataset on Betterridge's headlines?
      - wizzwizz4 2y ago
        > Do you really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies? — Buster Baxter (written by Matt Steinglass, 2005) People make stuff up, especially online. If you expect others to believe you about your "very strong dataset", you should provide that very strong dataset (complete with provenance).
        breck 2y ago
        Did you miss the very first thread, where I provided a link to the book containing the dataset, which came out 100 years before "online" invented?
        hombre_fatal 2y ago
        I just skimmed the whole book. Could you point out any of these "datasets" you think exist in the book and how you think they support the claim that all these ailments stem from not closing our mouths while we sleep.
        breck 2y ago
        Page 2: "During my Ethnographic labours amongst those wild people I have visited 150 Tribes, containing more than two millions of souls ; and therefore have had, in all probability, more extensive opportunities than any other man living, of examining their sanitary system ;"
        wizzwizz4 2y ago
        That's what you call a "very strong dataset"‽ It doesn't have a single controlled experiment! No studies of individuals in a population. It's just a series of anthropological observations, and then the author's guesses at the reasons for those observations. The book has stronger evidence for the harms of alcohol than mouth-breathing. This author is one of the good 19th-century anthropologists (as judged by his scathing criticism of the institutions of 19th-century anthropology), but he's still a 19th-century anthropologist. The books' framing device is the idea that “the Tribes of North and South America” (including Sioux! with horses!!) lived in a “primitive condition”: while his observations are careful, and believable, his conclusions are incredible leaps of logic. I can confidently assert that mouth-breathing does not deform the spine.
wilsonnb3 2y ago
You want to at least give a brief overview as to why I should trust medical advice from a book written before germ theory was widely accepted? This has all the hallmarks of quackery.
- breck 2y ago
  > why I should trust medical advice from a book written before germ theory was widely accepted? Why do you think how to live healthy is a modern invention? Don't you think people had to figure that out ages ago, or else we wouldn't be here?
  - wilsonnb3 2y ago
    Because medical science was in its infancy in 1870 and you should only trust medical advice from then if it is obvious, like don't light yourself on fire, or it has been substantiated and backed up with peer reviewed science at some point in the last 150 years. Your argument is just a mix of the appeal to nature fallacy and noble savage trope that people use to justify all sorts of medical treatments with no proven benefits.
    - breck 2y ago
      > no proven benefits. The Romans had great health. Proof: here we are thousands of years later alive and using their letters.
      - wkat4242 2y ago
        I know you're not serious but they were poisoning themselves with lead. Arguments have even been made that ends led to their downfall.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    > Why do you think how to live healthy is a modern invention? Don't you think people had to figure that out ages ago, or else we wouldn't be here? Not really, no. They had many ideas about health that we know are false now. And we still don't know a lot. Generally people died really young in those days. But these things don't really matter for the population continuity if people get sick after they get kids, and they used to have them really early in those days (and many). They just didn't usually live until their 90s. And of course knowing how to live healthy and actually doing it are different things too. It's something we really struggle with as a society and me too.
vlachen 2y ago
I don't mouth-tape, and I use a CPAP. However, since I prefer the nasal cushion type, I did run into issues with my partner regarding my mouth falling open and horrible "pumping air through your sinuses" noises emanating from my face hole. Instead of spending more from the home health shop, I just grabbed headband that came in some past 5K race bag, and I strap it around my head prior to the CPAP head gear. In my particular case, that very slight amount of pressure keeps my mouth closed (and spouse happy.) I have to wonder if just using the chin-strap would be enough to turn off the damnable machine. Given the results with the chin strap, I have considered mouth taping, but I'm not about to shave just for that test.
- breck 2y ago
  > I'm not about to shave I mouthtape and I got a full beard! Just use the 3M medical tape from Walgreens. I don't do it every night, but I do it on occasion. Used to do it more. I find it's helped me just sleep mouth closed as normal now.
- code_biologist 2y ago
  Sleepy me tends to rip off things like headbands. I have a beard and use GrifGrips sports tape to mouth tape. I've found the level of adhesiveness to be a perfect balance of strength and removability. Not the cheapest, but quality stuff.
  - vlachen 2y ago
    In my case with this, it runs under the headgear straps, so it tends to stay on and in place just as well as the rest.
yareally 2y ago
You mean the crazy theory this guy came up with after observing how Native Americans breathe through their noses? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin#Observations_on_Native_mouth_breathing_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin#Observations_on_...

by breck 2y ago

VeejayRampay 2y ago

mouth taping is dangerous for many reasons, you should not be advocating it in a public forum

breck 2y ago
You are right, on the list of things that are dangerous, you would find mouth taping, probably right next to using a fork.
- mikestew 2y ago
  You’re right, medical advice from the 1870s and TikTok videos, what could go wrong? But I did “look into ‘mouth taping’” as you suggested, and I’ll bet half the page titles were “Mouth-taping: is it safe?” or “…does it work?” At what point does Betteridge’s Law of Headlines[0] kick in? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
  - breck 2y ago
    > You’re right, medical advice from the 1870s and TikTok videos, what could go wrong? Have you read the book? Do you think I'd be recommending something that didn't have a very strong dataset backing it? > At what point does Betteridge’s Law of Headlines[0] kick in? Nothing is easier to manipulate than digital symbols. Thus, when talking about patterns one finds in digital symbols, one much be very very careful to build a trusthworthy dataset. Do you have a trusthworthy dataset on Betterridge's headlines?
    - wizzwizz4 2y ago
      > Do you really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies? — Buster Baxter (written by Matt Steinglass, 2005) People make stuff up, especially online. If you expect others to believe you about your "very strong dataset", you should provide that very strong dataset (complete with provenance).
      - breck 2y ago
        Did you miss the very first thread, where I provided a link to the book containing the dataset, which came out 100 years before "online" invented?
        hombre_fatal 2y ago
        I just skimmed the whole book. Could you point out any of these "datasets" you think exist in the book and how you think they support the claim that all these ailments stem from not closing our mouths while we sleep.
        breck 2y ago
        Page 2: "During my Ethnographic labours amongst those wild people I have visited 150 Tribes, containing more than two millions of souls ; and therefore have had, in all probability, more extensive opportunities than any other man living, of examining their sanitary system ;"
        wizzwizz4 2y ago
        That's what you call a "very strong dataset"‽ It doesn't have a single controlled experiment! No studies of individuals in a population. It's just a series of anthropological observations, and then the author's guesses at the reasons for those observations. The book has stronger evidence for the harms of alcohol than mouth-breathing. This author is one of the good 19th-century anthropologists (as judged by his scathing criticism of the institutions of 19th-century anthropology), but he's still a 19th-century anthropologist. The books' framing device is the idea that “the Tribes of North and South America” (including Sioux! with horses!!) lived in a “primitive condition”: while his observations are careful, and believable, his conclusions are incredible leaps of logic. I can confidently assert that mouth-breathing does not deform the spine.

wilsonnb3 2y ago

You want to at least give a brief overview as to why I should trust medical advice from a book written before germ theory was widely accepted? This has all the hallmarks of quackery.

breck 2y ago
> why I should trust medical advice from a book written before germ theory was widely accepted? Why do you think how to live healthy is a modern invention? Don't you think people had to figure that out ages ago, or else we wouldn't be here?
- wilsonnb3 2y ago
  Because medical science was in its infancy in 1870 and you should only trust medical advice from then if it is obvious, like don't light yourself on fire, or it has been substantiated and backed up with peer reviewed science at some point in the last 150 years. Your argument is just a mix of the appeal to nature fallacy and noble savage trope that people use to justify all sorts of medical treatments with no proven benefits.
  - breck 2y ago
    > no proven benefits. The Romans had great health. Proof: here we are thousands of years later alive and using their letters.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      I know you're not serious but they were poisoning themselves with lead. Arguments have even been made that ends led to their downfall.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  > Why do you think how to live healthy is a modern invention? Don't you think people had to figure that out ages ago, or else we wouldn't be here? Not really, no. They had many ideas about health that we know are false now. And we still don't know a lot. Generally people died really young in those days. But these things don't really matter for the population continuity if people get sick after they get kids, and they used to have them really early in those days (and many). They just didn't usually live until their 90s. And of course knowing how to live healthy and actually doing it are different things too. It's something we really struggle with as a society and me too.

vlachen 2y ago

I don't mouth-tape, and I use a CPAP. However, since I prefer the nasal cushion type, I did run into issues with my partner regarding my mouth falling open and horrible "pumping air through your sinuses" noises emanating from my face hole. Instead of spending more from the home health shop, I just grabbed headband that came in some past 5K race bag, and I strap it around my head prior to the CPAP head gear. In my particular case, that very slight amount of pressure keeps my mouth closed (and spouse happy.) I have to wonder if just using the chin-strap would be enough to turn off the damnable machine. Given the results with the chin strap, I have considered mouth taping, but I'm not about to shave just for that test.

breck 2y ago
> I'm not about to shave I mouthtape and I got a full beard! Just use the 3M medical tape from Walgreens. I don't do it every night, but I do it on occasion. Used to do it more. I find it's helped me just sleep mouth closed as normal now.
code_biologist 2y ago
Sleepy me tends to rip off things like headbands. I have a beard and use GrifGrips sports tape to mouth tape. I've found the level of adhesiveness to be a perfect balance of strength and removability. Not the cheapest, but quality stuff.
- vlachen 2y ago
  In my case with this, it runs under the headgear straps, so it tends to stay on and in place just as well as the rest.

yareally 2y ago

You mean the crazy theory this guy came up with after observing how Native Americans breathe through their noses? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin#Observations_on_Native_mouth_breathing_practices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin#Observations_on_...