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Your claim is Google Cloud Code is what brought SourceForge down? And why is it a believable goal that as long as you bring down a competitor, it's OK if you f

Your claim is Google Cloud Code is what brought SourceForge down? And why is it a believable goal that as long as you bring down a competitor, it's OK if you fail? No one (sane) has such a goal.

mgkimsal 2y ago
If the goal is to stop a competitor from slow or stop a competitor from gaining market share, and you slow or stop them from gaining marketshare, how is that failing?
- meiraleal 2y ago
  So a third competitor appearing and taking the marketshare from both of them doesn't count? Such a great logic to get promotions. Of course it would come from google.
  - mgkimsal 2y ago
    Why does it matter? If you send troops to block the enemy from advancing, if those troops block the enemy from advancing, they've succeeded. Even if those troops didn't "win the war". Even if they all died in combat. The mission was a success. If you want to say this is revisionist history from a googler... sure - make that case. But simply deploying a service to try to 1) prevent a competitor from gaining marketshare and/or 2) get the competitor to suck less... it's a valid move. Personally, I don't think google code alone made much of an impact on SF directly, but google code and ms codeplex together probably did get people to start considering using something beyond SF.
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      > Why does it matter? Because the truth matters? it is quite annoying to see people trying to bend reality to make themselves or their projects more important than they really were. Google code sucked, like many google projects. Github wasn't successful because Google Code made people "start considering using something beyond SF". Github succeeded because git is great and social network features allowed it to reach a much bigger audience.
      - sanderjd 2y ago
        Google code did not at all suck, compared to the alternatives - essentially just SourceForge! - at the time it launched. A lot of what the OP wrote rings true to me, Github obviously hit on a better model, but they clearly had different goals. I'm sympathetic to people who came into this landscape after Github was already around feeling like google code was a lame also-ran, but as someone who thought "why is everything hosted through this shitty SourceForge website" when I first started using open source, it was a huge improvement.
  - DannyBee 2y ago
    You are again thinking in terms of winning, and in literally the first sentence i wrote that we were not trying to win anything. The goal was to get SF to not be a shitty monoculture. Ideally by SF being forced to compete with us, and making their product less shitty. It does not require destroying or harming SF to achieve this goal. They chose, ironically, not to compete, and were destroyed as a result of their own choice. It also happened that third parties came along and helped make it both not shitty, and not a monoculture. Goal achieved. Why does marketshare have to enter into any of it? Nobody was trying to destroy anything. The person who started the project (dibona) came from VA linux and slashdot, and was very good friends with the people who ran both (still is!). He also started summer of code and lots of other things. Stop being so amazingly cynical.
DannyBee 2y ago
What evidence do you have, exactly? I've been super-consistent on this for at least 10 years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8605689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8605689 It was also written in our OKRS, etc at the time. I probably have plenty of internal evidence. In the end, we would have been happy if SF had become a great and reliable place as well. You are assuming the goal was to destroy it. But in practice, we expected them to compete for real and become better as a result.
ics 2y ago
DannyBee didn’t claim that they “brought SourceForge down” or even attempted to. They said Google Code was intended to prevent a monoculture, i.e. SourceForge being the only popular option.
shadowgovt 2y ago
> No one (sane) has such a goal I can't speak to modern Google, but old Google definitely did things to ecosystem-shape. It wasn't "sane" in the sense that, yes, it does buck simple calculations of profit-maximization; being able to avoid those simple calculations is the reason the founders structured the IPO to maintain executive control, so they could make wild bets that broke with business tradition.
sanderjd 2y ago
Again, I'm sorry, but you really need to work on your reading comprehension! My post in no way claims that "Google Cloud Code is what brought SourceForge down". It just says that the original post says their goal was for SourceForge to not be the shitty but dominant monoculture that it was when they started, and that fast forwarding to today, it clearly is not. It may well be the case that they had absolutely nothing to do with that! But the goal, as stated, was achieved either way. > And why is it a believable goal that as long as you bring down a competitor, it's OK if you fail? No one (sane) has such a goal. I just can't fathom why you think this. Can you explain it more? You have stated it a few times, but not yet explained it.

Your claim is Google Cloud Code is what brought SourceForge down? And why is it a believable goal that as long as you bring down a competitor, it's OK if you fail? No one (sane) has such a goal.

mgkimsal 2y ago

If the goal is to stop a competitor from slow or stop a competitor from gaining market share, and you slow or stop them from gaining marketshare, how is that failing?

meiraleal 2y ago
So a third competitor appearing and taking the marketshare from both of them doesn't count? Such a great logic to get promotions. Of course it would come from google.
- mgkimsal 2y ago
  Why does it matter? If you send troops to block the enemy from advancing, if those troops block the enemy from advancing, they've succeeded. Even if those troops didn't "win the war". Even if they all died in combat. The mission was a success. If you want to say this is revisionist history from a googler... sure - make that case. But simply deploying a service to try to 1) prevent a competitor from gaining marketshare and/or 2) get the competitor to suck less... it's a valid move. Personally, I don't think google code alone made much of an impact on SF directly, but google code and ms codeplex together probably did get people to start considering using something beyond SF.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    > Why does it matter? Because the truth matters? it is quite annoying to see people trying to bend reality to make themselves or their projects more important than they really were. Google code sucked, like many google projects. Github wasn't successful because Google Code made people "start considering using something beyond SF". Github succeeded because git is great and social network features allowed it to reach a much bigger audience.
    - sanderjd 2y ago
      Google code did not at all suck, compared to the alternatives - essentially just SourceForge! - at the time it launched. A lot of what the OP wrote rings true to me, Github obviously hit on a better model, but they clearly had different goals. I'm sympathetic to people who came into this landscape after Github was already around feeling like google code was a lame also-ran, but as someone who thought "why is everything hosted through this shitty SourceForge website" when I first started using open source, it was a huge improvement.
- DannyBee 2y ago
  You are again thinking in terms of winning, and in literally the first sentence i wrote that we were not trying to win anything. The goal was to get SF to not be a shitty monoculture. Ideally by SF being forced to compete with us, and making their product less shitty. It does not require destroying or harming SF to achieve this goal. They chose, ironically, not to compete, and were destroyed as a result of their own choice. It also happened that third parties came along and helped make it both not shitty, and not a monoculture. Goal achieved. Why does marketshare have to enter into any of it? Nobody was trying to destroy anything. The person who started the project (dibona) came from VA linux and slashdot, and was very good friends with the people who ran both (still is!). He also started summer of code and lots of other things. Stop being so amazingly cynical.

DannyBee 2y ago

What evidence do you have, exactly? I've been super-consistent on this for at least 10 years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8605689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8605689 It was also written in our OKRS, etc at the time. I probably have plenty of internal evidence. In the end, we would have been happy if SF had become a great and reliable place as well. You are assuming the goal was to destroy it. But in practice, we expected them to compete for real and become better as a result.

ics 2y ago

DannyBee didn’t claim that they “brought SourceForge down” or even attempted to. They said Google Code was intended to prevent a monoculture, i.e. SourceForge being the only popular option.

shadowgovt 2y ago

> No one (sane) has such a goal I can't speak to modern Google, but old Google definitely did things to ecosystem-shape. It wasn't "sane" in the sense that, yes, it does buck simple calculations of profit-maximization; being able to avoid those simple calculations is the reason the founders structured the IPO to maintain executive control, so they could make wild bets that broke with business tradition.

sanderjd 2y ago

Again, I'm sorry, but you really need to work on your reading comprehension! My post in no way claims that "Google Cloud Code is what brought SourceForge down". It just says that the original post says their goal was for SourceForge to not be the shitty but dominant monoculture that it was when they started, and that fast forwarding to today, it clearly is not. It may well be the case that they had absolutely nothing to do with that! But the goal, as stated, was achieved either way. > And why is it a believable goal that as long as you bring down a competitor, it's OK if you fail? No one (sane) has such a goal. I just can't fathom why you think this. Can you explain it more? You have stated it a few times, but not yet explained it.